OT again: Parents could be fined for missing school meetings

Page 10 of 11  


Precicely ON POINT. The law to punish for making an appoint for your childs benefit and not showing up will like all other laws impress future parents that they have a responsibility to their future children.
Don't be so short sighted.

There you go adding BS to the proposed law.

Give me a break. Do you often post under the name of Doug?
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On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 19:34:02 GMT, "Leon"

Why don't you just arrest everybody who has a kid without having a certain income then instead of coming up with yet another petty annoyance.

Hey, you're the one who proposed it.

Hey, if you don't like the doctrine that has been well established by the courts that the schools stand in loco parentis to the students, then you should be worrying about getting legislation enacted to change that, not finding new ways to harass parents. Sticking your little ostrich head in the sand and denying that that is the law isn't going to help anybody.
And I have no idea who this "doug" might be. Probably someone in my killfile, who you have just joined.

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snipped-for-privacy@cox.net says...

He'd be referring to me. I don't *think* I'm in your kf...
You've unfortunately had the same frustrating experience arguing with him that I have had on a few occasions. Don't take it personally: he just gets that way when someone demonstrates that he's wrong.
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Part of parenting is to see that the children are educated so they will not have to live in a cardboard box.
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wrote:

And you think the public schools are going to accomplish that by fining the parents if they don't come to meetings?
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No, but not showing up for other reasons is not good parenting either. Fines or not, parents must take some interest and responsibility for their children's education.
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wrote:

Do you see fining them for not showing up for meetings to be the way to do that?
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Tell that to Social Services when they come to take your kids away because you got fired for taking time off to attend one of these meetings, and you can afford to feed them any more.
Len
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Has that happened to you? Don't make up a problem before it exists.
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On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 18:25:17 GMT, "Leon"

Leon, you simply are not in touch with reality. I'll wager that you have a high income and/or no kids.
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I am comfortable, retired at 40, 12 years ago, but certainly have not got a high income. I quit my job to be at home for my son when he started attending public schools. During the first 3 years of my retirement my family had a negative cash flow every month. Needless to say, making ends meet was difficult those 3 years.
My son, now 19, is an Honors student and has a 4 year academic excellence scholarship that he earned that pays for 85% of his tuition at the University of Houston. Additionally, he works part time and has had the same job for most of the last 3 years.
The HS that he went to in SW Houston put up with no crap from the students. Poor conduct resulted in the student being immediately transferred to one of the other schools. Parent involvement at the school in this middle to lower income community was high.
I am totally in touch with reality. I am just not one to sit around making excuses for why I can't do this or can't do that. No one handed me anything.
People that sit around blaming others, get no where. Lead, help, or get out of the way.
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On Sat, 03 Feb 2007 19:51:33 GMT, "Leon"

If you are retired at 40 then you have by the standards of someone on Welfare or holding down a minimum-wage job, a high income.

A poor person doesn't have the luxury of three years of negative cash flow. Three weeks would be pushing it. If you think you know poor you've got another think coming.

In other words they had no clue how to discipline the kids so they cherry-picked and gave the problems to someone else.

"Middle to lower". In other words middle class.

If you think that being able to afford a "negative cash flow" for three years is poverty then you are _not_ in touch.

Uh huh. Sure.

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No, it hasn't happened to me, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
One of my neighbors, a divorced mom, took time off from one of her two jobs to take one of her kids to the emergency room. Even though she called in to explain the situation, she was fired for being late to work. One thing led to another, and Social Services was called in.
So don't denigrate problems of a type that DO exist just because they are outside of your experience.
Len
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
| Only the Texas GOP could produce such a fucktard. | | Parents Who Skip School Meetings Could Be Fined | | AUSTIN, Texas -- Parents beware: Miss a meeting with your child's | teacher | and it could cost you a $500 fine and a criminal record. | | A Republican state lawmaker from Baytown has filed a bill that would | charge | parents of public school students with a misdemeanor and fine them | for playing hooky from a scheduled parent-teacher conference. | | Rep. Wayne Smith said Wednesday he wants to get parents involved in | their | child's education. | | "I think it helps the kids for the parents and teachers to | communicate. | That's all the intent was," Smith said.
Sounds as if the Texan educators are sufficiently technophobic that they daren't punch up a phone number when they have something to say to a parent. I'm glad that isn't so daunting to teachers everywhere.
Also sounds as if Rep. Smith hankers to appear important/powerful by criminalizing and (perhaps further) economically handicapping those who don't do what he thinks they should.
Since justice has to do with equity (hence the scales in Justice's hand - along with the sword), it would be interesting to hear Rep. Smith expound on the justice of his bill - and to establish that $500 is, in fact, a fair and reasonable valuation of the stood-up teacher's time. Perhaps that valuation could be used, in turn, to arrive at a new salary schedule for Texas teachers.
I'm not sure that I think much of that criminalization stuff, tho. But then, perhaps the Texans - or the Texas Legislature - feels that they really do need more citizens with criminal records. Presumably, a person with a criminal record is easier to intimidate and control...
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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"Morris Dovey" wrote in message

Hey, Bubba ... watch it! It's a statistical fact that most of the folks now residing here in Texas are not "Texans". ;)
Besides, I won't defend the "educators" because they themselves are often the product of a successive generational increase in parental irresponsibilty which currently, and clearly, manifests itself in public schools in this country, and not just in Texas.
The proposal is unquestionably distasteful, but it is an attempt to address a problem that is growing here to the point it that it will take distasteful action to solve.
Got any alternative suggestions/solutions?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for keeping government out of daily life, but let's look at it at another angle:
I just paid $6.3K and some change in 2006 HISD school taxes two days ago ... believe me, with a kid in college, it hurt financially to do that public duty, which I have no philosophical problem with doing.
Now, you tell me why irresponsible parents, whose kids disrupt the classroom so no others can learn and thereby rob me/my kids of the value of my hard earned tax dollar spent on education, should NOT have to pay in some manner for their irresponsible parenting?
... and _particularly_ when they REFUSE to show up to discuss the problem!
Hell, you fine someone for not showing up at traffic court, why not a parent/teacher conference?
Which is more important?
That something has to be done is unquestionable ... got any alternative suggestions?
BTW, this is NOT personal, Morris ... the fact that you're a good guy shines through all the BS on both sides. :)
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Swingman wrote: | "Morris Dovey" wrote in message | || Sounds as if the Texan educators are sufficiently technophobic that || they daren't punch up a phone number when they have something to || say to a parent. I'm glad that isn't so daunting to teachers || everywhere. | | Hey, Bubba ... watch it! It's a statistical fact that most of the | folks now residing here in Texas are not "Texans". ;) | | Besides, I won't defend the "educators" because they themselves are | often the product of a successive generational increase in parental | irresponsibilty which currently, and clearly, manifests itself in | public schools in this country, and not just in Texas. | | The proposal is unquestionably distasteful, but it is an attempt to | address a problem that is growing here to the point it that it will | take distasteful action to solve. | | Got any alternative suggestions/solutions?
Yes I do; but I don't know of any _quick_ fixes. Parents who don't believe or who don't recognize the importance of education for their offspring constitute the /solvable/ part of the problem - the ones who just don't give a damn constitute a part of the problem for which the only solution is a change of parents.
The solvable part of the problem lies in a prior failure to properly educate the parents to understand the importance of their kids' education. It seems to me inappropriate to punish a person for being inadequately educated. The quickest solution might be to remedy the prior failure to educate the parent - but I'm not sure how that might be accomplished; and I'm almost certain that the effort would not be universally effective.
The longer term and IMO more effective solution is to ensure that all students are imbued with an understanding of the importance of knowledge - and of _why_ they are taught what they're taught - and what value that knowledge has in their world beyond school. /This/ is what too many parents missed out on; and it's what _must_ be remedied in teaching their kids.
Need evidence? It's really easy to come by - just ask kids what courses they're taking; then for each course ask each kid: "Why're you studying /that/? What's it good /for/? How will knowing /that/ change your life?" Every "I don't know" you hear identifies a candidate for the next generation of non-believing/non-recognizing parents.
The problem is _not_ solved by criminalizing the parent nor by imposing $500 worth of hardship on the family.
|| Also sounds as if Rep. Smith hankers to appear important/powerful || by criminalizing and (perhaps further) economically handicapping || those who don't do what he thinks they should. | || Since justice has to do with equity (hence the scales in Justice's || hand - along with the sword), it would be interesting to hear Rep. || Smith expound on the justice of his bill - and to establish that || $500 is, in fact, a fair and reasonable valuation of the stood-up || teacher's time. Perhaps that valuation could be used, in turn, to || arrive at a new salary schedule for Texas teachers. \ || I'm not sure that I think much of that criminalization stuff, tho. || But then, perhaps the Texans - or the Texas Legislature - feels || that they really do need more citizens with criminal records. || Presumably, a person with a criminal record is easier to || intimidate and control... | | Don't get me wrong, I'm all for keeping government out of daily | life, but let's look at it at another angle: | | I just paid $6.3K and some change in 2006 HISD school taxes two | days ago ... believe me, with a kid in college, it hurt financially | to do that public duty, which I have no philosophical problem with | doing.
Only because you recognize that there is an adequate degree of equity. You forked out $6K and seem to feel that in return the HISD provides a fair return - for which your hard-earned money was well (if painfully) spent.
| Now, you tell me why irresponsible parents, whose kids disrupt the | classroom so no others can learn and thereby rob me/my kids of the | value of my hard earned tax dollar spent on education, should NOT | have to pay in some manner for their irresponsible parenting?
Ok. I'll be glad to tell you as soon as you explain to me how each of those irresponsible parents came to be that way. Clue: It isn't simple ornryness.
| ... and _particularly_ when they REFUSE to show up to discuss the | problem! | | Hell, you fine someone for not showing up at traffic court, why not | a parent/teacher conference?
Because the person summoned to appear in traffic court stands accused of having violated some law - which is a very different situation than not showing up for a meeting. Not showing up for a mutually agreed-upon meeting is an inconsiderate display of bad manners; but it's not a crime.
| Which is more important? | | That something has to be done is unquestionable ... got any | alternative suggestions?
I agree that something needs to be done. I'm neither legislator nor educator; so my suggestions don't carry a great deal of weight - but they're listed above.
| BTW, this is NOT personal, Morris ... the fact that you're a good | guy shines through all the BS on both sides. :)
I taught high school math for about six weeks as a substitute (one of the most exhilerating experiences of my life) and managed to get all four years of students excited about coming to math classes every day. I found out after the fact that a couple of the classes had asked for a meeting and crowded into the Principal's office to ask that I be made their permanent math teacher. The only thing I did differently was to make sure they understood _why_ we studied each topic and how mastering the course material might affect their lives. That tiny bit extra was all they needed!
We're all mostly good guys/gals - the essential difficulty lies in finding out what the problems really are; and in trying to puzzle out how much of each problem /can/ be solved.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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wrote:

A period here would suffice.
The schools had those parents for 12 years and the thing that amazes me is that those parents are willing to let that system get its hands on _their_ kids.

First, shoot the "educators" and the education professors and the education theorists and burn all the education texts and start over with a clean slate--it would be difficult for them to do worse than what we have now.

And this won't happen until the teachers actually _know_ from first hand experience what value that knowledge has in their world beyond school. And that can't happen as long as most teachers go from school to teachers' college to teaching school without ever once having to find out how to apply that knowledge themselves.

Oh, the kids know why they're taking the courses. Because each one takes them one step closer to escaping from durance vile.

And that's the difference between you and a typical schoolteacher. You actually _know_ how to apply that math to real-world problems.

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/

The school never saw the many of the parents. A large percentage of the parents did not live in the US untill very recently.

Brilliant, do you really expect any one to take you seriousely?
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J. Clarke wrote:
| The schools had those parents for 12 years and the thing that amazes | me is that those parents are willing to let that system get its | hands on _their_ kids.
Well, actually the parents don't have (or don't think they have) a choice.
| First, shoot the "educators" and the education professors and the | education theorists and burn all the education texts and start over | with a clean slate--it would be difficult for them to do worse than | what we have now.
Even in Texas I don't think you can do that. It's important to remember that no matter where you're going, you can only start from where you are. I suspect (but don't actually know) that Texas' educators could do a lot worse than is being done now. I'll also guess that there are ways to make *huge* improvements without spending very much.
How many Texas school districts are tapping into local (volunteer) resources to add substance to their programs? For example, the HISD sits in what must be an ocean of "rocket scientists" and engineers posessed of awesome math and computer skills - people who know for a fact that with the right intellectual tools, not even the sky is a limit. It's probably worth asking: "How many times in how many years has the HISD tapped that wealth of knowledge and enthusiasm so that it's students might catch fire?"
| And this won't happen until the teachers actually _know_ from first | hand experience what value that knowledge has in their world beyond | school. And that can't happen as long as most teachers go from | school to teachers' college to teaching school without ever once | having to find out how to apply that knowledge themselves.
I don't want to hear someone say that this isn't a solvable problem. All you're talking about here is getting teachers a little exposure to the world outside their classrooms! Perhaps it'd be worth developing an internship program and mandating three months of participation in field-related work prior to granting a masters degree in education...
| Oh, the kids know why they're taking the courses. Because each one | takes them one step closer to escaping from durance vile.
Regrettably each step along _this_ path leads down, rather than up. Kids need to know that they're not wasting their time in school. Being kids, they need to experience some excitement in learning, they need to feel the thrill of discovery - and, above all, they need to recognize that they are capable of accomplishing worthwhile things. _This_ is the path /up/!
|| only thing I did differently was to make sure they understood || _why_ we studied each topic and how mastering the course material || might affect their lives. That tiny bit extra was all they needed! | | And that's the difference between you and a typical schoolteacher. | You actually _know_ how to apply that math to real-world problems.
So? Let's ask The Big Question: "What can be done to help teachers-to-be gain that experience/perspective?"
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
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wrote:

Skipping country is always an option.

Of course there are, but does the theory on which educators are operating allow it?

Do any of those engineers and scientists have teaching certificates in math or "computer literacy"? If not then they aren't "qualified". My high school chemistry and physics teacher was associated with the Manhattan Project. One year she was not allowed to teach physics or chemistry because according to some piece of education-theoretical bureaucratic nonsense she wasn't "qualified", while Johnny Mac "the only physics I ever took was Ex-Lax" the football coach was according to the rules "qualfiied" and so he taught physics and chemistry.

The trouble is getting there from here without going somewhere else first.

First you have to convince the educational theorists that the teacher actually has to have such experience, until then they'll fight you tooth and claw.

How many teachers have a master's degree?

Unfortunately. Personally I maintained a good enough average to be accepted to Annapolis and Georgia Tech, but if someone had burned the school to the ground I'd have been the first to thank him.

To convince them of that first you have to be sure that they _aren't_ wasting their time.

Oh, they recognize that they are capable of accomplishing worthwhile things. The trouble is that instead of accomplishing worthwhile things they're stuck in school.

And the answer, alas, begins with shooting all the education theorists.
Of course there's also the "them as can do, them as can't teach" issue--any teacher who can get a job that gains that experience and perspective is unlikely to give it up to teach school.
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