It's a matter of having specialized skills that are in high demand in a specific situation. High enough demand to where people will pay a lot for them. Toilet scrubbers are a specialized skill, but not in high enough demand to be worth that much, there are too many of them around.
I spent the first 18 years of my work life traveling over 100K miles a year. My record was while living in NY, I went to Salt Lake City for lunch on day and returned home to NY that night. I didn't do much, but I had the technical knowledge and the skill to explain it to the customer if needed. That's why the salesman justified bringing me along.
If I had children I would encourage them to be the best at what they do, and make sure that what they do for a living is in high demand and not a lot of people do it on the level they do.
Bernie
PS: On the flip side, there was a gentleman selling snow balls on a street corner the other day for $1. He did sell 6 of them, but I'm not sure that is a unique product with high demand. At least not in NYC when it's snowing, hahahaha.
This is a tough crowd here, as I'm sure you've noticed. Forgiveness isn't one of it's virtues, I'm afraid.
Why not add a S&H charge to cover expenses for smaller orders? Wouldn't that be a win/win solution? If you product prices are comparatively low, then additional charges for S&H might be palatable to the small quantity customers.
There are a number of methods for charging:
Charge 'actual' shipping charges
Charge a set fee for handling (Ignoring your actual shipping charge)
Charge a set fee for handling, plus actual shipping charges
Charge a set fee for handling, based on several purchase total ranges , with the higher fees charged to larger orders.
Charge a set fee for handling, based on several purchase total ranges , with the higher fees charged to SMALLER orders.
I've never figured out why some companies charge MORE S&H for the more expensive order, while others reduce or eliminate the S&H charge entirely for larger orders.
Many places provide charts based on the customer's address so that they can see what "zone" they will be charged for...
Look at Amazon: orders over $25 - no charge
To keep the "little guy" happy, perhaps you could ship ANY size order, as long as everyone is aware of a fair, SET pricing structure for S&H. I've ordered items totaling as little as $18 and gladly paid the shipping charges, because I need the items. IF the company said, that no we can't send you those things, because it's too small of an order, I'd be pretty frosted! Percentage wise, I know I'm taking a big hit on S&H for a small order, but that's MY DECISION. Don't take that option away from your customers, is my humble suggestion.
Au contraire - I bought a few hundred dollars (shipping was $70, dion't recall order amt), mmm, a couple years ago. Guess you don't keep records back that far.
**** I've recommended your company many times to folks here who need a supplier, ...
based on the good service I received (in the past). So, your little diatrabe was quite the surprise.
"And as far as Lee Valley....if you are happy paying $17.90 sq. ft for Canarywood, $25.00 for Paduak, and $17.00 for Purpleheart....than good for you. Seeing that I charge $4.75 for canarywood, $3.95 for Paduak, and $3.95 for purpleheart, plus $0.30 per bd ft for surfacing."
Robin, you responded:
"We resell a tiny bit of project wood bought from a commercial US supplier - we don't make money from it - it's a convenience item for our customers. Our prices reflect our costs - that's all there is to it. We're not a wood supplier, and don't pretend to be."
While I realize that this thread is really addressing customer relations and the proper rhetoric of that, it's the economics that has me stumped here, so I'm going to leave out all the emotional stuff and just ask a question about wood economy.
The difference in prices between the same wood (at least you didn't mention any difference) is shocking, to me at least. The fact that, as you state, you're not a wood supplier explains some of that, but 4.7 times as much? Wouldn't it be a convenience to your customers--if less expense may be termed a convenience--to just buy from a source like Rob who apparently is charging much less than your commercial supplier, add your cost then pass the savings to the customer? I can't imagine how that would cost 4.7 times as much....
As I say, however, I'm ignorant of wood economy, so you may have a perfectly good reason that I can understand. It wouldn't be the first time I found myself ignorant of something everybody else knew...
I'm surprised that you'd be so foolish as to "respond in kind" in a public forum that gets archived. Sounds like your company is privately held - as if it were public, you'd have been called to task for writing such a missive. If you were in my organization, you'd be dismissed for exercising such poor judgment.
We'll let the market dictate what happens next to your company. You may find respite, if the majority of your customers don't use Usenet.
In the spirit of trying to be helpful, I'd like to suggest a common, but effective, technique should this happen again. Next time you're irked by such a complaint, write a response with all the acerbic/caustic/vitriolic venom you can muster. Then put the response in your desk drawer (or save it in your "drafts" folder) unsent for 48 hours. After time expires, review your epistle and then decide whether you send it or delete it.
You're welcome.
In closing - you've not lost any business from me. But you've created quite an impression. One that I'll share should I overhear a potential customer asking about "Advantage Lumber".
In fairnes I am sure you know but I will mention it. Rob was not the first ot bring LV into this. (Renata) He was not even the second. (Mike) And his response was limited to the scope of this thread. And RL himself pointed out they do not try to be a wood supplier. It was unfair and wrong to bring them into this. If you want to compare apples to apples, compare his customer relations to other wood suppliers. (Oh yeah, newsgroup mentality.) They are few and far between. It is a tough business, look at all the cheapos they get. Tough because wood is not exclusive such as your own branded tools and selection. All RP has to compete on is price. And it is the customers who pushed it on him. Or would you all agree to pay 40 dollar handling fee on any order under 150 dollars. Thought not. And sure people can suggest RP institute some shipping and handling policy. But look at what gets said about others who did, they have been bashed about. No matter what somebody does, if it comes up in a newsgroup, and it is an extra charge, your fried. Any other big mail order store come to mind not yet mentioned? Duh! They were losing too much, on too many little orders and had to do something. Cheapos. And I don't mean the store.
This is like a high speed race through a city and a pedestrian getting clipped.
But there are reasons why things cost less and why things cost more. Deal with it. And it is nice, LV at least has this stuff in stock. And it is all nice "select" stuff worthy of the price.
Heck this is a newsgroup. I am sure that only one out of ten people vowing not to go to AL for wood, will so in the end. The other nin will work around the limit. Newsgroup mentality. Scheese.
If I won the lottery I don't know if I would be a bigger nut opening a tool store, or a lumber store?
Small quantities, tied to S4S versus large quantities of of S2S or rough. Lots of difference there. The buyer gets to eat the trimming in both cases, of course, but the result is much higher pricing for the S4S. Advantage is set up to deal with lumber in large amounts; Lee Valley is set up to deal with almost everything in small amounts, relatively speaking. Lumber always costs more per unit in small bits and pieces. I think if you'll check a couple of other mail order general woodworking supply places, say Rockler and Woodcraft, you'll find little or no difference in the prices. Woodcraft actually does more, shipping S2S wood to their local stores that isn't available by catalog or on-line. I don't know if Lee Valley does the same. Even then, Woodcraft keeps a fairly large scale wood shop going to get the wood in shape for the catalog.
Add that to the simple fact that the more wood you buy at one time, the less you pay for it, and you'll note that Lee Valley, Woodcraft, Rockler and others are almost certainly paying more per BF than is Advantage.
A few years ago--2-3?--Grizzly started adding wood to their catalog. IIRC, that venture lasted about one catalog series. Grizzly's owner is no fool: in fact, he's a very astute businessman. If there had been more money than hassle, he'd have kept it going. Rob is almost certainly correct in saying providing wood, at whatever cost, is a customer service and not a profit center of any kind.
Charlie Self
"Man is a reasoning rather than a reasonable animal." Alexander Hamilton
Yes - the economics are strange but here are a couple of the factors...
1) the smaller the piece - the more discriminating the buyer is, and higher the "reject" rate is...when a consumer buys a 3" x 24" x 1/2" (.25 bd ft), it has to be virtually perfect - no knots, sapwood, dings, bark, warping etc. - an awful lot of it gets sold at much lower prices.
2) the volumes are not high - even in the best sellers, we would only order at most 100 pieces at a time (see #3)
3) the turn rates are lousy - there are so many species, and so many discrete sizes, that it really takes a lot of inventory to keep in stock
4) it's a pain for most wood suppliers to produce - again small quantities, lots of labour - set-up etc.
5) small shipment sizes make for large freight factor.
If we sold in larger lots (say....500 bd feet or so ) then yes, the price would definitely be a ton better. It's sort of like the difference between buying a Coke from a vending machine, and buying a case from Costco....and also realizing that the same Coke from a soda fountain only costs cents for the same amount.... volume, packaging, ease of production, costs of fulfillment - all factors that determine the product economics....
As I always enjoy a good argument, I finally finished reading this string and have the following comments.
I think y'all have been a bit rough on Rob here. He's trying to run a business, plain and simple - and to stay in business he has to make choices which may cut several ways. Anyone can understand that small orders that require shipment are labor intensive, and either he now has the pricing, processes and employees in place to make small orders profitable or he doesn't. It appears he doesn't. One of two things will happen as a result of his decision on minimum order size, (1) his sales volume/profits will decrease materially and he will change the policy or put in place processes so he can profitably handle small orders, or (2) he won't miss the small order business, and can concentrate on being, and remaining, profitable and competitive in price on the business he is prepared to accept.
This is America, a great country, and neither Rob, or anyone else out there who is a consumer of hardwoods, has to do business with each other. Frankly, I don't think a minimum mail/shipment order of $500 is unreasonable at all. That's about 100 bd ft of 4/4 cherry, maybe
15 twelve foot boards. There are other internet operations that do have the shipping/employee/process capability to fill 1 or 2 board orders so I don't know what everyone has their knickers in a knot over. Come to central New Jersey and see what the local suppliers get for 4/4 cherry - how about $6.75.... that, to me, is unreasonable, but its my choice to buy or not to buy. So I didn't, I saved up my money for a few months, rented a box van and drove to central PA and bought a mixed load of 1200 bd ft of 4/4 kd lumber - hard maple @3.50/ft, cherry @4.40/ft and poplar @1.55/ft from a sawmill that has a kiln and now I have an inventory to work off. Its called a free market, so all you whiners make your choices and stop busting this guy's chops and acting like victims on Jerry Springer or Oprah - everybody is a victim nowadays. I think Rob's prices are competitive, I hope he continues to be successful in his business so he can stay competitive and I wish him well. If my pickup ever gets up to his neck of the woods, I'll be sure to stop buy and get some of his quarter sawn white oak.
You make some good points except you kinda missed the target. It was not about the new policy - it's about his attitude and publicly bashing customers and the way he handled the situation. He got zero points for customer relations....
We are not whining - we're telling him that he can make his business decisions and live and die by them (and he will) but with an attitude like he's expressed here, well.... let's be kind and say he didn't fare well. He's now publicly set the tone for the way he wants to do business and many of us don't care to deal with that kind of attitude. It's Jekyll and Hide time if you read his posts.
He'll be lucky if this little diatribe of his isn't picked up by the local newspapers. I doubt he's gained any customers from this, surely he's lost some and that was by his own hand.
Actually, I was the first to bring LV into this as an example of good customer service (outstanding more like it).
I don't care if a company is selling lumber, tools, widgets, or watchamacallits, good customer relations are good customer relations. In that sense, I feel the comparison is valid.
Right, Bob! This is the FIRST time in the annals of history that somebody has made an unpopular statement in a newsgroup! I'm sure that he'll be the focus of this week's Sixty Minutes, entitled, "I had the audacity to tick off the denizens of the Wreck". The follow-up show will show him living incognito in a small villa in Spain. GET REAL!
Yeah, I do to. I may not love my job, but I have no desire to go into business for myself. As long as I'm working, I'll be working for someone else. Letting someone else get ulcers and pull his hair out and work 100+ hour weeks.
I hate risk. Going into business is like playing Russian roulette with five bullets in the cylinder.
You forgot
- get discovered, make a million bucks as Silvan the Schlong
Bus drivers... Sure, but self-employed bus drivers? What does being self-employed, or an aversion to such, have to do with retiring at 35?
Anyway, set all the other arguments pro and con aside. The bottom line with business is that if *I* don't wholeheartedly *believe* I can do it, then I can't. There's never been anything I was prepared to put my ass on the line for. If I have doubts, you can bet my investors will have doubts too.
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