Mike, Reneta was not a current customer of ours. She called for the first time and we informed her that we have a minimum order and are currently working on updating our website to show that. I do not see the problem with that.
And as far as Lee Valley....if you are happy paying $17.90 sq. ft for Canarywood, $25.00 for Paduak, and $17.00 for Purpleheart....than good for you. Seeing that I charge $4.75 for canarywood, $3.95 for Paduak, and $3.95 for purpleheart, plus $0.30 per bd ft for surfacing.
Now that is something that would upset me. No wonder they are growing...they are ripping you off and you like it.
Hope that bit of "kicking the slats out of your crib" made you feel better cause you just lost some customers for being such an arrogant ass (your words).
The small mail orders helped you grow and were the "bread and butter" of your business as I recall you stating once and now you can't make any money on them? Give us a break.
With that attitude you will soon be out of business and by your own doing - not the economy. Get in your truck and go visit Lee Valley in Ottawa and ask to speak to Rob or anyone working the counter. They will teach you all you need to know about customer service in about 10 seconds flat. It's called attitude and caring about the customer - not bashing and screwing them.
The post was not about bashing your business - it was about your new policy and attitude.
I'll find my wood elsewhere. One small order gone...next.
from dictionary.com Bash: To engage in harsh, accusatory, threatening criticism.
*********
I wasn't "bashing" your company and it's too bad you're so sensitive (?) as to feel the need to "bash" one of your former customers and former supporters on this forum. As I stated (both on the phone w/you and in my article here), I never received your email (even went back and checked to see if it inadvertantly got mixed in w/trashed spam - nope).
Your tone in this response is unwarranted and IMHO adds to the increasingly negative view you're acquiring. Perhaps a dose of maturity is in order. (actually, I really don't know how to characterize what's in order, just that something is - I was rather surprised by your personal attack here).
As I stated, it's understandable that business has to adapt, but your flippant dismissal of small orders, both on the phone yesterday and in this response is annoying because I'd guess those orders contributed in no small way to get you where you are today. Your business details are irrelevant to me, but your attitude toward your "valued" cusomters sucks.
Attitude - that's the key issue here. Not business decisions.
And, I was hardly ordering a splinter ($12) - my order was probably in the range of $200. Just not worth it any more, huh? Now you can run with the big boys...
I'll pass on the business venture opportunity - I have my own interests and running a lumber company longer than I would need to take advantage of the owner's discount, isn't one of them.
Wow, now compare your response (again - not the business decision) to the attitude Lee Valley takes. Admittedly, they seem to go to an exteme at times to satisfy the customer (small example: I felt guilty when they credited return shipping on something they were not at fault with; but they stated that was their policy). You could go a long way towards civility and appreciation and not come close to their extreme valuation of the customer.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:12:59 GMT, Mike Alexander brought forth from the murky depths:
Potential retention of customers might have been to continue to service existing customers and limit new customers to larger orders.
I think Rob did himself a secondary disservice by the tone of his reply to Renata. Unemotional facts would have sufficed (perhaps with an mildly emotional plea at the end) for people to understand your situation better. HMMV
-- Remember: Every silver lining has a cloud. ----
I also failed to see where you were "bashing" Advantage Lumber, but more or less informing people of the new policy (which at the time was not general knowledge nor available from the company web site) and lamenting the need to find a new supplier.
As far as Advantage not raising prices in 5 years, I am somewhat amazed that they can do that given the commodity nature of wood, with wild variations in prices -- both up and down. Now, not raising shipping and handling prices, I can see that as a business decision to not pass on some price increases to customers, but I suspect that modest rises in those prices would be understood by customers given the reality of the rises in actual shipping costs.
We resell a tiny bit of project wood bought from a commercial US supplier - we don't make money from it - it's a convenience item for our customers. Our prices reflect our costs - that's all there is to it. We're not a wood supplier, and don't pretend to be.
Believe it or not - there are a "few" customers who appreciate being able to buy a small quantity of exotic wood .... even some who don't live anywhere near a lumber store.
You see, we do this because we have this weird idea that all customers are good customers....not just the "big" ones.... as a matter of fact, we've even found that sometimes, "small" customers turn into "big" customers....
Good luck with your new policy, your wonderful sense of customer relations, and tremendously astute strategy to build goodwill....
You're making lots of new friends here....I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't use our name when posting your tripe.
Rob Lee President Lee Valley Tools Veritas Tools
(oh - yeah....also self-employed, worked here since age 16, worked 100 hour weeks, and occasionally takes the time to post to the Wreck)
Just purchased a new router table/fence setup from LeeValley. Deciding factor between competing quality products from various vendors was Rob Lee's reputation for customer service.
Looks like I've ruled out a potential supplier (Advantage) for wood. If I was buying a large order, I'd go local and save hefty shipping. Getting wood from upstate NY or any other distance is reserved for a small quantity of a desired "special" wood. Since that service is now not provided by Advantage, maybe I'll just drive the 7 hours so I can be a walk in customer ....RIGHT!
I purchased one order from your company, Rob. I was very happy with it and especially the ability to deal with smaller orders, have it delivered to my house at a reasonable cost, and even the way you dealt with me personably when I called with questions. I even recommended you to several of my friends, and pointed in your direction on this newsgroup.
Well, you make it sound like you're the best game in town and if we don't like it than "neener neener". That simply isn't true. For example, about 2 hours drive from me is the Connecticut Wood Group Hardwood Outlet in Enfield, CT. They have a very good selection of hardwood, although I admit it isn't quite as diverse as yours. Their prices are perhaps a bit higher than your listed ones (maybe 5% or so). The thing is, they don't have a minimum order. They have expensive milling equipment. They have hardwood plywood, moldings, etc. etc. And they bust their butt to help you when you come in to look around and buy lumber. Sure, I have to take a half-day to get my lumber. That's the only reason I ordered from you before - that and you had a special on the wood I needed at that time. You sure aren't going to get my business anymore, as you probably can tell (and likely don't care, considering your attitude shown here).
Honestly, it seems that you have lost touch with what a service business is about - the customer. If you wanted to avoid alienating people, why didn't you just raise prices to cover the costs on smaller orders? 5-10% for orders under 100 bf, or something like that? I generally understand the value of scale, and don't get too bent out of shape when I run into that. But, closing the door on your smaller customers completely just means we won't ever come knocking again.
I have to say that I really didn't read Renata's post as bashing your company. If you noticed, it didn't take me very long, after reading about your change in policy, to see how I, as a walk-in customer, would be affected. Had your new policy included walk-ins, I too would have been upset. Not because I didn't understand the change, but because it would have become more difficult for me to take advantage of the services you offer.
I know that a business decisions like the one you've made is not easy. I also think you are over reacting to the criticisms this decision has generated. Although the comments may appear negative, perhaps they should be viewed as an indication of how your customer(s) have valued doing business with you.
Offering suggestions such as "couple an order with a friend or neighbor" is constructive. I can see you being defensive of the business decision you've made, but in my opinion, making disparaging remarks to potential customers and other retailers is extremely counter productive.
-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
But, if the policy is so new that the web site doesn't yet reflect it, and if *I* were the business, I'd fill *that* order and let them know that the policy has changed, and that they could pick up or combine future orders with friends.
That approach would show that 1: you honor your written (even if it's electronically so) word and 2: that you've thought enough about it to offer possible solutions and alternatives.
but then, i'm not a business owner... so what the heck do i know?
Unfortunately, your response here has not helped your cause. While I can understand your postiion regarding making a profit, even the small order customers can make money for you. There's ways to do it. Your price structure should (and has, IIRC) reflect quantity discounts. For small orders, institute a handling fee, or raise the price per board foot.
I have been a customer of yours in the recent past, both mail order and walk-in (although the eight-hour drive for the walk-in was a pain), and while I have been satisfied with the service and the helpfulness of you and your staff, I guess your new policy will not allow me to be a customer of yours again. There's no way I can justify $500 worth of anything for the amount of woodworking I do, and I don't find myself in Buffalo very often.
FWiW, don't make it sound like you need to be self-employed for someone to understand your position. I have been running my own engineering company for several years, and the small jobs and short consultations are truly the bread and butter - they pay the bills, and allow me to concentrate on quality.
and found out that CWG HO is
69 miles from me. I have gone out of my way to Highland Hardwood in Brentwood, NH for great selection and pretty good prices, but to save 50 miles and an hour's time sounds like a plan to me. I have an excellent lumber yard about 45 minutes from my home (Curtis Lumber in Ballston Spa, NY) that sells many exostics and domestics, but you can't buy it roughsawn. It's all S4S. Great if that's your thing, but I will not but S4S lumber, so I have to find it elsewhere.
At this point, I'm even way beyond buying lumber. I'll buy exotics like cocobolo, purpleheart, jatoba, etc. as long as I can get roughsawn, but for domestic species, I have loggers actively searching for species I want so I can saw them myself (on the Wood-Mizer) and air-dry. (meep-meep - vroooom!)
Note - blatant plugs for wood sources here are the findings of a satisfied customer. No affiliation, no SPAM, etc.
I live about 85 miles away from Advantage Lumber in Rochester. I've been giving serious consideration to driving out to Advantage and loading up the car with lumber for my next few projects. I can get the lumber locally, but the prices aren't as good as Mr. Pelc's.
After reading this thread, I've decided not to make the trip and will spend my money at Pittsford Lumber instead. Even though I'd be picking up the lumber (and wouldn't be subjected to the $500 limit), I now won't consider making the trip based solely on principle. If Mr. Pelc wants only high-volume mail order customers, then that's his choice and I personally have no problem with it. But to start talking smack about a potential customer because she doesn't like your new policy, and then rip into Lee Valley for no good reason? I *do* have a problem with that. It leaves me with the impression that although you might sell me my lumber, my business would apparently be an inconvenience to you.
Enjoy your $4.75 canarywood, $3.95 Paduak, and $3.95 purpleheart...I suspect that it'll be sitting on the shelf a lot longer than it used to.
I cannot believe the attack on Lee Valley. If a company wants to sell wood at $7,500 per board foot, that is between them and their customers.
I have had good luck with the folks at:
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I do not know what their minimum shipments might be because my order was fairly large. However, the wood quality was great and the board footage was generous.
If Advantage wants to set a minimum purchase...that's fine...I am sure that they realize that they are cutting out a chunk of the population that might buy (or has bought) from them. It always is a bummer when life changes like this...and we have something taken away that we had before. However, there are other sources of wood that still will go with the smaller consumer...so the best thing to do is find them and move on. Man...from all the testiness in this thread, one would almost think it is the Christmas Season! Regards Dave Mundt
I fail to see why a business can't set a policy and folks either abide by it and are customers or they don't and avoid said business. It's free enterprise, last time I checked. Some businesses don't even give refunds. They are required to state that prominently, and if you find that off-putting, shop somewhere else. But there is no need to make a scene at the place of business.
There is a major pet store in our area that doesn't take Visa. I can choose to either pay cash, write a check, or avoid the store. I don't think it is my prerogative to berate the store for their policy. If it works for them, more power to them. IF it doesn't, then they will change it when they see the negative impact that it has on their bottom line. No one put a gun to my head and said that I must shop there.
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