New Policy @ AdvantageLumber

[Bay Area Dave]

bob,

get a life.

dave

Bob S. wrote:

[Bay Area Dave]

That's the nicest thing you ever said to me, Ed. I'm touched.

dave

Edw>>Get a life...

[Rob Stokes]

Rob (Pelc)

Maybe it's a simple matter of finding a way to reduce the repetitive work required to fill the small orders, rebuild your price accordingly and continue to service the little guy as you've done all along. For as long as I've been playing in this sand box, you're the one aimed at as the place to get wood when there's not a local supplier....you're reputation ('till now) was hard earned and highly respected.

I know for me, the majority of my purchases are 10 bd ft here, and ten there. I'm a hobbyist after all, I don't "turn out work". I expect to pay a bit more for this and I don't expect to be serviced the same as a guy who's buying thousands of bd ft/month. But I do expect to be able to buy wood and I don't expect there to be a minimum order. The place I buy my wood now isn't geared for the little guy and has to move entire lifts for me. I try and go in with a friend who's also buying in order to justify their overhead...You can guess where I go when it's time to buy 100 bd ft (or more).....

Like I said, maybe it's a simple matter of re-packaging the portion of the work that actually costs money and seeing if you can't continue to provide the service you've become known for.

Rob

[Hylourgos]

Thanks, Robin, for a fairly cogent reply. I like the Coke analogy, which is illustrative except for the fact that instead of one conglomerate selling in different venues, we are comparing here two (quasi-competing) businesses in different venues. Makes it hard to compare, I know.

As I understand it then, would you say that the difference in price (4.7 times) is accounted for by a) wood quality and b) prep work for smaller stock/higher quality items in a non-wood supplier store? Do I have that right?

It's perfectly sensible, even probable given the many things I don't know about preparing stock at that level of marketing--but still surprising. I'm inclined to believe it if you tell me so.

Regards, H

[Hylourgos]

So there is a qualitative difference between Rob and Robin's stock? I want to be sure you know that for sure because Rob's post implies that there is not: he compared them as equivalents.

True, but even if Robin were to buy retail from someone like Rob, a jackup of 4.7 times seems steep, that was the issue. I would assume, furthermore, that someone like Robin would be able to get wood for less than what Rob retails it.

My question would be the same to Rockler, Woodcraft and the others. Are they selling wood that is really 4.7 times the value, at the consumer end, than Advantage?

[I think you'll want to revise that last sentence on several grounds....]

Man, there is something I'm just not understanding about this. Before Renata et al. were discouraged by the new minimum limits, they apparently thought Advantage's wood was fine in terms of quality. The boards at Rocker, Woodcraft and LV are by reason of quantity more expensive, but surely not 4.7 times as much. Is that great a difference to be found in quality and prep? If so then Rob's earlier post equating his wood with Robin's was misleading, right? [NPI!!!]--but no one jumped on him for that, so I'm left to think otherwise.

Floundering in a sea of construction-grade pine, H

[Mike Alexander]

It's as Robin said, LV is not a lumber yard. They primarily sell tools and garden stuff.

The project wood they sell comes in 3"x24" pieces, with thicknesses ranging from 1/8" to 3/4". There is no pine, oak or even cherry. It is all reasonably exotic woods. When you are dealing with pieces of wood that small, nicks and knots, or any other imperfections make a piece unusable, so all of their pieces are completely clear.

As for volume, I don't know how much they keep in the back, but all the pieces they keep on the floor in the store I go to, fit in a cabinet rougly 5'x3'x24". That is for all species. That's pretty low volume, but as Robin pointed out, it is meant as a convenience item for their customers, not a major profit item.

I wouldn't be going to LV to buy enough lumber for a table, but if I just need a little bit of something exotic for an inlay, it's much better than the long drive to the lumber yard where I'll have to buy a piece much bigger than what I really need.

...Mike

[Kevin Craig]

I'm not Rob, but I'll chip in anyway.

Here's the gist of his point: a customer wanting 1 bf of nearly perfect wood can buy it from him at a price that seems shockingly high per bf when compared to quantity suppliers.

Ripped off? No. Consider this: to get the same perfect 1bf piece from a quantity supplier would require purchasing several times that amount -- 4 or 5 bf if you're lucky. Then you've got to join and plane it, sort it, and hope you get the piece you need, or else it's back to the lumber yard.

In short: if you're building 24 linear feet of walnut bookshelves, then don't buy your lumber from Lee Valley. But if you need a premium quality 1x3x24 board of a species you don't have in your wood shed, then buying from LV (or Rockler, or Woodcraft) probably won't cost you more money, and will certainly cost lest time, labor and aggravation than buying in quantity and milling your own in hopes of finding a select piece.

Kevin

[Kevin Craig]

(snip)

If you've read the whole thread, then surely you've found very few criticizing Advatange Lumber's business decisions to have a minimum order amount. Some might quibble about the cut-off point, but that's normal.

OTOH, this thread has been almost entirely about a diatribe against an established customer. In a public forum, no less, which certainly does nothing positive for expanding his customer base. Not to mention denigrating a businessman who has shown an outstanding devotion to customer service, including stocking very low-profit, small quantity hardwoods.

Kevin

[Charlie Self]

wseavey asks:

Rob implied a lot of things. Actually, when selling small quantities (really, small pieces) of wood, it's easier to get pieces that are top quality, because you can cut around the faults. All boards have faults. Almost all, shall we say. Faults are allowable under hardwood grading standards, within certain limits. But when you take a board down to 3/4" x 3" x 24", you cut off the faults and either toss them or use them elsewhere...usually, they're tossed. That means you get less out of the big board, with more going to the scrap bin, so you have to charge more. Add that to the extra processing and you should start to see the light.

I don't know the actual costs in either case, but as Robin said, his turnover of wood isn't that great, so he's got to supply warehouse space for several pieces of each size in each species in each store, as well as in the main warehouse. That is an expense. Why would you assume Robin could get wood for less than Rob retails it? He's not buying huge amounts, so the mills that turn out loads of many thousands of board feet aren't going to be interested. He may be able to work the price down, but how much?

No. Really, your question should be for the customer: is the wood they buy worth 4.7 times (and this is Rob Pelc's figure, IIRC, and one I've not checked--have you?) what Advantage charges for it? For those who find it a sensible value, I see no problem. They can avoid buying a jointer and planer, and build their projects, saving the shop room and tool expense of prepping their own wood. For those who do not find it a sensible value, then there is no need to purchase it. Go to Advantage, Steve Wall Lumber or another, lower cost, supplier who get about 6 or 7 or 8 times what I pay for green, rough lumber at most mills around my Virginia house. But I have to have the machinery to work those boards up, the space to store them green until they're ready, and the strength to handle larger boards. I wonder how many woodworkers out there are limited to handling smaller lumber for any of a variety of physical reasons. Is the smaller size worth more money to them?

There is no argument about quality, nor have I seen one about price until Pelc brought it up. The argument was about his treatment of a customer who publicly complained about his new policy aimed at keeping only large customers. I once had a book publisher like that: I bitched about his contracts to a writer's organization after I received checks for many thousands of book sale royalties that looked more like checks for a couple of relatively short magazine articles. He jumped all over me with half-factual material and a refusal to do business with me again (a foregone conclusion in my mind when I made the complaint).

And yes, there is that much difference in quality and prep. Lee Valley really, really does have to pay someone to run all that material through machines until quality is near perfect and size is something that will fit within their normal shipping limits. And they really have to pay for the machines and the electricity to run them. And they really have to discard more scrap...and I am sure they have to pay to have the scrap hauled away. And they provide storage space.

Is the actual difference 4.7 times? I have no idea. And, in fact, it's none of my business. (But I just ran a check, and Lee Valley gets 3.65 times the Advantage price for cocobolo, so Rob Pelc's 4.7 is not exact.) If I find the wood a good value, then I will purchase it. If I find the wood a poor value, then I won't purchase it. The mark-up over another company's prices doesn't enter into it unless they are offering exactly the same thing, which they are not. Actually, even then it doesn't enter into it. There is no pistol held to the customer's head, so he, or she, can choose freely.

Charlie Self

"Man is a reasoning rather than a reasonable animal." Alexander Hamilton

[Mike Alexander]

Doh! Forgot the hardware. They also sell hardware. Not like plumbing and such, but rather hard to find hinges and knobs and handles and such.

...Mike

[Randy Chapman]

If I understand it right, it's that and more. From a 10bdft board, it's quite possible that only 1/2 of that is good enough to sell to their audience, so the price doubles. Next, add actual milling costs. Next, consider that they have to keep a large variety of sizes of each species, and they do not sell quickly, so there is a lot of cost in just keeping them on the stock (shelf space that could be used for things that move faster, costs of money invested in this stock generating no revenue, etc). Finally, pieces get damaged while they're around, and are lost that way as well.

That's my take at least.

--randy

[Hylourgos]

Makes good sense, Mike. Thanks. Pretty much apples and organges....

H.

Well...I too said that, right above ("in a non-wood supplier store").

[Dave Balderstone]

Bingo.

I've bought cocobolo from Lee Valley, mail order. It's very, very convenient to add $10 or $20 worth of small pieces to a $150 order (along with the set of 30 natural bristle brushe for $13 CAD... I add those to almost every order) and it doesn't even increase the shipping charges on what I'm already buying.

And considering my geographic location, even more so.

I could probably get that $20 worth of cocobolo for $10 somewhere else... If I was prepared to drive 5 - 10 hours, or pay $10 in customs duties, or buy a $100 board at one of the two places in town that sell hardwood of any description, and mill it myself in my tiny basement shop...

Or, I could chew on tin foil while shaving my head with a cheese grater.

I've said it before, and I'll repeat myself: Lee Valley offers great value and trememdous customer service. Value and cost are not interchangeable.

The ONLY problem I have with LV is the lack of a store here in Saskatoon... But I suspect a cabal of SWMBOs is paying Robin off.

djb

djb

[Hylourgos]

Charlie, thanks for an articulate reply that answers most of my questions. I get it now about the size differences: yours and Mike's responses make it clear that the two products can't really be compared fairly (although their cost and profit margins might be if we had a few more figures). Apples and Oranges. I was kind of hoping Rob would jump in to clarify his original comparison....

OK, but given Mike's description of the size of Robin's bins ("a cabinet rougly 5'x3'x24"), that seems a negligible expense--what, a few pennies, literally? Educate me if I'm wrong, because I have no experience with warehouse costs, that's just an intuitive guess. Plus, Rob has the same warehousing issue, no?

Simple: because I can get it for what Rob retails it. I, a nobody, a destructor and mangler of constuction grade pine, an academic nerd. If a man who owns a fairly large and successful business in the industry can't get it for a better price than I can, then I need to adjust my view of how the world works.

My question was for the customer ("at the consumer end")

No, I have not checked Rob or Robin's figures. They both stated them in a public venue, and no one challenged those, so I took them both at their word. Foolishly academic of me, I know.

Are you serious? That gives me hope....

As a consumer I feel it's my business--just now I don't think it's really possible (Apples and Oranges thing, not enough financial data, etc.). 4.7 was my, not Rob's, figure. I arrived at it by adding the prices of the three woods Rob mentioned and dividing them into the figure Rob presented for Robin's wood. It was an average, IOW. Paduak would be 6.3 times the price.

I did not include any other factors into the equation, which you and Mike were quick to point out. For instance, Rob noted that he provides "surfacing" for .30 bf. I don't really know what he means, but I'll assume a 2s2 surfacing. So, for a 4/4, 8' Paduak board surfaced 2s2, Rob would charge me $34, right? Let's even assume it gets down to 3/4 thickness--that matches Robin's thickest project wood piece (3"x24"), which goes for $12.50 (1-4 quantitiy) or $10.60 (5+). I would suspect I could get more than three pieces out of Rob's board, which at that point would match Robin's price. The more boards (than three) I get out of the eight footer, the better Rob's price becomes. I don't have enough experience cutting boards like that, so I can't begin to estimate if that's a gamble or not.

Your point about customer needs is well taken. If I don't have or don't want to use a TS and jointer or router to get those pieces out of Rob's board, then Robin's service is worth it were he to charge twice as much as he does. It's Apples and Oranges to this consumer.

But for the consumer who uses a TS/jointer, that's a relatively easy, even enjoyable procedure and the circumstances now become more a same-fruit type of problem, no?

Yes, that would be my point too, except that freedom of choice only happens for those who have the knowledge and experience that makes for an educated choice. Thus my questions--which, I fear, are beginning to wear thin, so I'll end here.

Yours, H

[Charlie Self]

wseavey notes:

Display bins and warehousing space are different. I don't recall what size, if I even noticed--there's one heckuva lot to see--in the Ottawa store, the bin was, but to keep it fed, there has to be more wood stored in back, plus what's stored at the central warehouse, plus what is stored before being run through the machinery. Unfortunately, the answer is never as simple as we'd like.

For the most part, Rob Pelc should be able to store most of his wood in an enclosed environment with little in the way of shelving, etc., as most will be palletized and stacked. This can't be done in a warehouse that also carries a supply of 8000 other items (that figure may be low).

You can get it, if you buy $500 worth a time. Seriously, though, I really have no idea at what stage Lee Valley buys their lumber--S2S, S3S, rough, dry, green, half-dry, etc.--so I'd hesitate about making assumptions on price.

Generally, I pay from 50 to 75 cents a bf for rough, green lumber. I usually figure 50% of that will make usable--not FAS--lumber, with a year drying, a couple months finishing in the shop, planing, jointing, ripping. Sometimes I'm wrong and I lose 70%. Sometimes I'm luckier and lose about 20% and on those batches, I usually find much more FAS and much less #1 Common.

Suspicions don't always work out, as I noted above. I've seen some wood that looked awfully nice in the rough turn out not so nice when planed. Usually, if it looks really bad, it IS really bad. Sometimes, if it looks really good, it's still really bad. Not always, maybe not often, but often enough to reduce suppositions to a guess. There are many people out there who can read a rough board better than I can, which is why I like skip planing once my wood is 6 months dry. Then, I can just about state I know what I'll have in 6-8 months.

But it shouldn't be a problem, because this is not the customer Robin's wood is aimed at pleasing. As someone else noted, it is often easier and cheaper to get inlay material from Lee Valley because handling is so much less of a hassle, but for the most part, those of us with jointers and planers won't be buying this wood.

Don't sweat the petty stuff. And don't pet the sweaty stuff. It isn't hurting anyone at all for you to ask questions, and it may be helping others, so if you have more questions, keep asking. I'll keep trying to answer.

Charlie Self

"Man is a reasoning rather than a reasonable animal." Alexander Hamilton

[Mike Alexander]

Ah, but I also said, I don't know how much they keep in the back. I only see what is out on the floor, and that is just a small cabinet.

I'm guessing you have never been to a LV store. They don't operate like most stores. Other than a few exceptions (the project woods being one of them), you can't just walk in, pick up your items off the shelf, and then head to the cash. They keep one of everything out on display, and everything else is kept in the back. You fill out an order form, give it to one of the friendliest people you will ever meet, and they go gather it up for you, and bring it back for your inspection, and then you unfortunately have to pay for it (Rob, can you do something about that ;)).

...Mike

[Hylourgos]

is never as simple as we'd like.

True, but real estate is real estate, and both have to pay for that. The differences in building types and storage, for the same amount of lumber to be stored, still amount to pennies--perhaps using the plural here is excessive.

Or if I picked it up myself, or shared the cost with others for a minimum order, as Rob pointed out, or if I go to a comparable lumber supply.

But regardless it would be safe to assume that the cost would be lower than what I would get the same lumber for, no?

Ahhh...the light comes on. Thanks, Charlie

[Hylourgos]

Bingo. In fact, I've only seen the inside of one store that would qualify as a real WWing store (can't remember the name, it's opposite a HF in Raleigh NC). And where I live now I don't know of any nearby (Sewanee TN) so I live the vicarious existence of a catalog reader. Some of that stuff you have to see up close, though, I understand.

Regards, H

[Hylourgos]

To Kevin and Randy both: very clear explanations, thank you.

H.

[Renata]

One last beating of the dead horse...

(interspersed)

Renata (who still hasn't made it to Exotic Lumber for her cherry because the neighbor who offered use of her truck got tied up yesterday, and my annual holiday get to gether with the plumber (dang drain clogged right on schedule) is today. See, this is why I like mail order - order it and it arrives on your doorstep, no fuss, no muss).

I that case, you blew it.

Perhaps in the heat of the moment you did read more into my responsce than was actually there, but there's no doubt your reply was an attack (or "bashing"). And, as a business owner you have more to lose when you let loose, than someone casually posting some diatribe about politics, etc.

My posting simply stated your new policy on a forum where I know a number of folks woulda been interested in the info. In that posting I also let your casual dismissal of small orders be known because I had a bit of an issue with that. (Remember when on the phone I said "There are gonna be a number of folks on rec.ww'g that are gonna be unhappy". and you (or your assistant) replied, "I don't think so" in a sort of condescending tone?) I was upset at Reneta accusing my company of not caring about the

Because you apparently no longer can afford to care about them.

Business decision understandable. Attitude not.

smart, not dumb for email