-- ======================================================================== Charles Jones | Works at HP, | email: snipped-for-privacy@hp.com Hewlett-Packard | doesn't speak | ICQ: 29610755 Loveland, Colorado | for HP | AIM: LovelandCharles USA | |Jabber: snipped-for-privacy@jabber.hp.com
I would never suggest that anyone buy below their WANTS because we all have something we go "over the top" on. I certainly do-- read the electrical set-up below my signature. ;> Having said that, my opinion is: get a top-of-the-line contractor's saw. Why?
1.) While it's true that one should avoid the "pretend" table saws that are available for under $200 at Sears, Home Depot and, (for all I know), Toys-BackwardsR-Us, it's equally true that there are a lot more cabinet saws in hobbyist's shops than there are cabinet-saw quality hobbyists using them. 2.) If, as you state, precision and a perfect fit are your goals as a beginner, then you will achieve them faster and continue reaching them longer by buying the best contractor saw you can afford and putting the other 800 to 1000 dollars into a week's worth of education at a good woodworking school. It isn't the brush that paints the picture, it's the artist. Studying with people who really know their craft is priceless. 3.) We-- (Americans)-- put too much emphasis on tablesaws, anyway. An awful lot of this world does just fine with a really good bandsaw as their weapon of choice. Consider that with the exception of dadoing, everything you do on a table saw is going to be only the first step in the overall process of dimensioning lumber. Other machinery or hand tools are going to be required to dress out what you cut. It's in those stages that you achieve the precision you're looking for. (Cutting plywood doesn't qualify here, either. Precision plywood cutting for panels, backs and bottoms is dependent on a quality fence and proper feeding technique, not a "quality" cabinet saw.) 4.) Should you decide, in the future that you just can't get through a project without cutting lotso 3" thick Maple and you just gotta have more horseys, you'll be glad to have a second saw to use as a dedicated Dado machine. Think of how cool you'll be in your neighborhood as the only guy with not one, but two tablesaws. 5, and finally.) It will, (or should, anyway) cost you at least another several hundred dollars for the quality support tools you will need to reach the precision you say you demand. Squares, guages, markers, chisels, planes, etc., aren't cheap. Matter o' fact they're darned pricey. Are they in your budget? Can't do quality precision work without them. What about Jointers, Planers, etc.? Got Money?Michael Who just moved and because of space and easement constraints is building a leetle 12X16 shop and has a 4-outlet 110V box on every other stud, and a 220V box about a foot off the floor below those. Fifty-six(!) 110's and 14(!) 220s for 192 square feet. That outtabout doit.
12X16 Building materials: $2500 All the above electrical capacity: $300 and counting. The ability to plug something in right HERE, and not have to settle for "over there": Priceless. :)Between High School and the end of my college years I worked for a sign shop where I eventually got to regularly use an enormous 14" table (cabinet) saw. It was 5HP with 5 belt drive. That was my first experience using table saws.
Graduated from college, bought a house, then a table saw. I got the then Rockwell contractors saw (10" open base 1.5 HP motor) That was 20 years ago. 3 months ago I finally got a cabinet saw, a Delta Unisaw.
The difference between the two is quite noticeable. It is a pleasure to use and it was well worth the investment to me. I did quite a bit of wood working over those 20 years with the contractors saw. I expect that the quality of my work might improve a little with the new saw, but not much.
I never regretted getting the Rockwell since it was all I could afford at the time. It has served me quite well.
"Michael Baglio
How many circuit breakers? Code has a limit on the number of outlets allowed on a breaker.
-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
Heh... whatever my electrician friend tells me I need, Jack. That'll be the next trip to sLowe's. I haven't done any of this shop building without some serious adult supervision. ;>
(Btw, I recall several months ago you responding to a request of mine for general pricing guidelines on shop building materials. Iirc, you quoted a friend's shop, recently built. That post really gave me a lot of "go-for-it" that I didn't have previously. So, if I didn't thank you, thanks. Youdaman.)
Michael
It's a good point and one I have considered a lot. Probably the reason I am asking a group so I can separate and distinguish my wants from my needs. If all I have is a shop with a great table saw, I'm not going to be able to do much. There will be more funds in the near future but what will I do until then? I have some nice hand tools, Japanese chisels, LN 4 1/2 plane, and a few other items. but I am using a router table for a jointer which is not very suitable. I need some better squares and clamps etc. not to mention WOOD, it's not cheap.
On the other hand maybe it is better to get this one big item out-of-the-way so I never have to consider it again, and slowly build a shop of only quality items over time.
I've heard of people subsituting a quality band-saw and using it for a table-saw duty, that is what laguana seems to suggest on their band saw video. But I don't see how that could work, small table, no dado, table tilts instead of blade, lateral limitation by yoke of band saw, I just don't see that working out.
It's a tough question, and it makes me realize how expensive this hobby is.
Thanks for your input.
Marc
"Michael Baglio @nc.rr.com>" .....
......
"Michael Baglio
Your welcome and I'm glad the information I provided helped.
The friend I mentioned has been using that building for about a year. He's already talking about bumping it out. There's a lot to be said for "post and beam" construction.
-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
Buy used machinery.
UA100
My $0.02, based on observation as a newbie, rather than experience.
While a beginner without a table saw, I often think that folks overemphasize the TS. Sorta like the "if all you have is a hammer..." approach to life. Even router tables are made to look more like a TS than a router. Why should a RT fence be parallel to the edge of the table? The router is not a linear device like a TS - the fence can go at _any_ angle!
This could be done with a router. And a decent router is comparable in cost to a decent dado blade kit for a TS.
I got a bandsaw, based on my needs (mostly boatbuilding based). I can do most things that I can think of with this except cut really wide pieces of wood (like sheets of plywood/MDf/etc). Crosscuts I do with a hand saw.
I also was infuenced by the FWW 1st annual Tools&Shops issue, where Gary Rogowski suggests that your first power tool should be a BS (unless your needs are cutting wide chunks of wood).
It seems to me that a lot of folks could make good use of a BS and RT to do more than a TS could. I can cut thru 6" of wood more easily than with a TS - that would require me to cut, flip over and cut again. The BS is a substitute for a scroll saw, as long as curves aren't too tight. The router will allow plunge cut dadoes and grooves rather than the continuous versions that most TS users get. Much neater than having a groove sticking out the end of a hunk of wood.
If I needed to cut plywood/MDF/etc (in the short term given my _very_ limited budget), I'd probably go for a decent straightedge and circ saw and use the BS for everything once the big sheets are down to size. But that would suit my needs, possibly not many others'.
Anyway, if you need a TS, it's an excellent tool. But I wonder if some folks focus on the TS too much.
Mike
overemphasize
I find it quite useful for ripping wood precisely. The blade doesn't wander like it would on a bandsaw. Ripping at an angle can be hairy on a bandsaw, but on a TS it is no problem because the work stays flat and the blade tilts.
It can also make bigger cross-cuts than I can make with a chop saw.
Perhaps it is just that I have never worked with a really good bandsaw, but I find that cutting with a tablesaw is just more accurate due to the stiffer blade.
-Jack
You can do excellent woodworking without a good cabinet saw, but after you own a good cabinet saw, you wonder _why_ you would want to.
IMO, it boils down to different questions: Are you good enough to work around the weakness of the tool? Or will you get angry and blame the tool for your failures?
Look at the 'Desk' project on this site:
Then look at his workshop. He's got a Craftsman table saw. Anybody who says you can't build nice stuff with middle-of-the-road tools is a sad excuse for a woodworker. It's just a matter of how much YOU want to spend on tools ($$$) and how much time/effort YOU want to spend working around the weaknesses of your tools.
Bottom line: The craftsman makes the furniture...the tools are just along for the ride.
Never tell SWMBO that you can build quality stuff with "middle of the road" tools. :)
dave
Chris Merrill wrote:
shoulda known that was comin.......;-)
Bob S.
I envision Keith under the belly of some rusty monster so often, I bet he gets a tetnus shot every six months to protect himself.
dave
Bob S. wrote:
I envision Keith under the belly of some rusty monster so often, I bet he gets a tetanus shot every six months to protect himself.
dave
Bob S. wrote:
In article , Michael Baglio
I think I've got you beat for 'power density', at least on the 110 side.
In my _kitchen_, I've got *THIRTY* 110 outlets (1 quad for every 3' of counter, plus a duplex for (A) the refrigerator, (b) the freezer, (c) motorized partition to the DR. Only 1 220v though, for the stove. But, we're talking
88 sq ft 'gross', and only about 30 sq ft 'open' after appliances and counters. (I've got ten separate circuits feeding only the kitchen. there's only 8 for the _rest_ of the condo.)ABSOLUTELY!!!
You know, I've debated this issue myself. And I'm almost to the conclusion that I can do any heavy ripping on my bandsaw anyway. Would I really need a 3 HP+ motor on a table saw since I'd mostly be using it for finish quality cuts and joints ? My 1.5 HP Delta would take care of any rips up to 6" thick, with no risk of burning. All I'd have to do is plane it afterwards, and some have to do that to wood cut on their table saws anyway.
I still love the idea of buying myself a nice cabinet, but I'm thinking as far as a table saw goes, a beefy contractor (+two iron wings) would give me enough stability and power to do all I will need. I'm not terribly satisfied with the state of table saws and how they work right now either. Its counterintuitive to think I can actually use it without being injured or at least frightened to the point of soiling myself.
Can someone explain to me the fascination with dado blades on table saws? I use a router for all dados (it SEEMS easier). All woodworkers have at least one router, so why do people use table saws for dados ?
out-of-the-way
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