More noise about climate

Page 1 of 8  
My Dutch newspaper (electronically at nrc.nl) drew my attention to this American-Swiss scientific report. The abstract/summary is freely available at: <http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/science.1182488 . Or through the Digital Object Identifier site: <http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1182488
For the full text I can use my AAAS subscription. If anyone is truly interested in the full report, I could email the pdf file, but I'm not totally sure of the copyright rules.
Science does progress, but the elucidation of complicated interrelationships of atmospheric regulations is not yet complete, it appears. (A somewhat sarcastic statement perhaps, but I do believe that we should quit pouring CO2 into the atmosphere).
Here is the summary:
Contributions of Stratospheric Water Vapor to Decadal Changes in the Rate of Global Warming Susan Solomon,1 Karen Rosenlof,1 Robert Portmann,1 John Daniel,1 Sean Davis,1,2 Todd Sanford,1,2 Gian-Kasper Plattner3
Stratospheric water vapor concentrations decreased by about 10% after the year 2000. Here, we show that this acted to slow the rate of increase in global surface temperature over 2000 to 2009 by about 25% compared to that which would have occurred due only to carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. More limited data suggest that stratospheric water vapor probably increased between 1980 and 2000, which would have enhanced the decadal rate of surface warming during the 1990s by about 30% compared to estimates neglecting this change. These findings show that stratospheric water vapor represents an important driver of decadal global surface climate change.
1 NOAA Earth System Research Laboratory, Chemical Sciences Division, Boulder, CO, USA. 2 Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado, USA. 3 Climate and Environmental Physics, Physics Institute, University of Bern, Sidlerstrasse 5, 3012 Bern, Switzerland.
Received for publication 25 September 2009. Accepted for publication 12 January 2010.
    
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Han wrote:

But who is the "we" and what is to be done about it? The US is not the major producer of CO2 and the US could stop producing CO2 completely without having any effect whatsoever other than slowing the rate of increase a tiny amount. Would you fight a nuclear war with the largest producer if that is what it took to make _them_ stop?

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 09:11:29 -0500, J. Clarke wrote:

produced 20.2%. So our stopping would reduce emissions only a "little bit"? I cite:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions
If you have conflicting evidence, please produce it.
BTW, considering the difference in population, the US is far ahead of China in emissions per capita.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Larry Blanchard wrote:

Well, Mr. Clarke has posted many missives to this group since my post above, and none of those have responded to it. I assume that means he has no conflicting evidence and was merely spouting BS. Typical.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
scrawled the following:

IOW, Mother Nature knows what to do and has been doing it to regulate the climate around her. I, too, feel that Man should tread more lightly on the Earth. For the most part, it is, but coal-fired power is still a ghastly unrepentant part of the process. Spending billions to make "clean coal" is one of the greenies' dumbest concepts.
-- Imagination is the beginning of creation. You imagine what you desire, you will what you imagine and at last you create what you will. -- George Bernard Shaw
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Actually, I think the "greenies" find it an offensive oxymoron.
It's the industry that's pushing it.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

What a mouth-full. Clean Coal...WTF??? Has anyone ever looked at coal up close? You have any idea what kinda shit is in that stuff? Sure it's a great gob of carbon, but...
I am not an alarmist about AGW.. but I DO believe we need to be nice to the planet. That whole Rainforest butcher job is a real problem. There is no need to pollute the oceans. Bad stewardship is just that. Stupid management of our one-and-only planet. I have done some travelling and I have seen what stupid people do with their drinking water.... they shit in it. Not smart. But... one does not deserve the 'greenie' label when one is aware of bad habits. I am no Ed Begley and never will be. Eat what you kill, turn into furniture what you chop down or build a house.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Robatoy wrote:

and is exacerbated by some of the alarmists. By preventing the sale of timber from the rain forest, the people from those countries now burn down the trees so they can make a living farming and raising livestock on the land. If it weren't for the meddling, more than likely those people would realize that they could make a living with logging and would take care of the forests.

That falls into the "poop in your own bathtub" arena. Taking care of where you live is just plain good sense. Making sure that you, your children and your grandchildren have a nice place to live leads to the idea that maybe controlling where you put your trash, how you handle waste products and how industry around you properly disposes of waste are all good ideas. The idea that such acts "save the planet" or that releases the products of perfect combustion (CO2 and water vapor) into the atmosphere is harmful or will destroy the planet is where it just starts to get silly. Silly vis a vis the common folks parroting this stuff -- diabolical and controlling vis a vis those in power promoting this as a way to garner even more power into those peoples' lives.

--

There is never a situation where having more rounds is a disadvantage

Rob Leatham
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Larry Jaques wrote:

Yes, it's called negative feedback and if the earth was so unstable as to come crashing down from what man could do then most likely we wouldn't be here in the first place. It's very arrogant or just plain ignorant to believe than mankind can compete with the power of mother nature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:25:44 -0600, Jon Slaughter wrote:

Let's see. The world's population doubles on average every 60-65 years. That probably only holds true since the Black Death, but you get the idea. Not too mention the fact that the Industrial Revolution is a recent thing as history goes.
But you seem to equate the damage we can do today with the minor affect of a few million or less primitive homo saps and claim that since they didn't die out anything we can do today isn't going to hurt.
Your argument is ridiculous.
--
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Well, the earth has survived more than one comet impact, and life continued, despite REPEATED mass extinctions that occurred before our ancestors were small shrew-like creatures nibbling on grubs.
Whether or not humans are here has SFA to do with the long term "health" of the planet, whatever the fuck that means...
Is Venus "healthy"? Mercury? Neptune?
The "damage" that h.Saps can do to the planet is inconsequential in the scheme of things. And given that the stated goal of many of the "Greens" is the death of most of the human race, well... Pardon me if I don't give a rat's ass what they think. They could improve things simply by opening one of their own veins.
If we're gone, who cares whether the spotted owl exists? The universe sure as hell doesn't.
Cleaning up the worst pollution on the planet? I'm for it. Let's start with China, India and Africa.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Dave Balderstone wrote:

You'll note the richest countries generate the least pollution. In the main, that takes energy to do so. Cutting back on energy production will worsen pollution.
We can eliminate, for example, electric stoves - thereby cutting down on the amount of coal necessary to produce power - and all cook our meals over charcoal braziers. There goes the neighborhood.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/30/2010 7:44 PM, HeyBub wrote:

Good point. Perhaps the poorest countries need some more appropriate means of producing the energy they use for warming their homes, cooking their food, increasing their agricultural production.
I don't thing they need anyone to do it for 'em - perhaps they just need for the technologically-advanced (richest) countries to show 'em how...

We could, but don't need to - but already in undeveloped areas people are eager to cook without having to gather fuel, and to improve their own neighborhoods. Increasing numbers are doing just that. :)
There's nothing wrong with using electricity to cook, but there are other ways - and, people being the inventive critters we are, we will find more ways still to fry our bacon...
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:52:02 -0600, the infamous Dave Balderstone

Uh, are we gone yet? Were we gone when it went from 500,000,000 to 1B, or 1B to 2B, 2-4, or 4-6B? Um, no.

And your Malthusian rants aren't, Larry? ;)

All my Venusian friends are. <g>

A Freakin' Men!

A friend knew a guy with lots of land in WA state. He had no spotted owls. When the guys next to him clearcut their land, he suddenly got owls. Even though their original habitat was completely gone, they just moved and built up a larger population. Too bad the guys at the top of the regulatory system don't realize that. (That's another little bit of Mother Nature, too.)

Why stop there? Clean it up everywhere, starting today. But tell folks like the EPA (who micromanage the shit out of it, making it too expensive to even START cleanup) to STFU and GTFO, so it can happen!
-- Imagination is the beginning of creation. You imagine what you desire, you will what you imagine and at last you create what you will. -- George Bernard Shaw
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 18:30:00 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:

My rants? Your response totally ignored the text I was responding to.
Intelligence is an experiment that failed - G. B. Shaw
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/30/2010 6:52 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:

Our own is easier to get at; but let's consider helping China, India, Africa, Bangladesh,...
Perhaps we can expand our vision of the possible and perhaps, just perhaps, we can come up with some practical technologies to improve _everyone's_ situation.
Or were you thinking that perhaps Exxon, Chevron, BP et al will jump to the fore and wave their corporate magic wands? :-/
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

They're all there in the cap and trade market push, Morris. Every single one of them.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 1/30/2010 9:06 PM, Dave Balderstone wrote:

So? There _is_ a choice: either give them their corporacracy or build a future in which they play much diminished roles.
Everybody gets to make their own choice.
[ Suggested reading: "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" , by John Perkins ISBN#978-0-452-28708-2 ]
Choose wisely.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 16:25:44 -0600, the infamous "Jon Slaughter"

<ding, ding, ding, ding> Give the man a kewpie doll! He got it in one.
-- Imagination is the beginning of creation. You imagine what you desire, you will what you imagine and at last you create what you will. -- George Bernard Shaw
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Ignoring your obvious straw men, I think the height of ignorance is the implication that you *know* the whole story, one way or the other.
You don't. I don't. We don't.
All YOU'VE done is say that anybody who believes other than what YOU believe is arrogant and ignorant.
Which is funny and ironic!
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.