life of a tree revealed in the rings

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interesting shot showing the fires during the life of the tree
http://media.eurekalert.org/multimedia_prod/pub/web/20963_web.jpg
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On Tue, 5 Jan 2016 09:00:09 -0800, Electric Comet

Did you know that tree rings do not show years, but show rainy seasons?
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On 1/5/2016 6:15 PM, OFWW wrote:

I always understood rings represent years, size of rings represent the climate for that year. Do you have a reference by any chance?
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I'll have to look for it, The reason it stuck in my mind was that those people looking for the ark could tell by lumber with the lack of rings in it. Which some people would discount, but also a friend of mine who was studying ice "rings" or layers that geologists used for the age of ice discovered that it actually bore record of rain or snowfall, which is why some rings were close and some wider in patterns. I'll look it up tonight.
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On 1/5/2016 8:15 PM, OFWW wrote:

;~) Well the Arc, is a super natural object and all that goes with that... ;~) But I would be interested in what you find.
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As the story goes, before the flood there was no rain. No rainy season, no rings, or very few?
Anyhow, here are a few page links, and basically the growth, or rainy season and the end of it determines the rings. So in area's that have a regular rainy season you will get a growth ring. In a severe drought it can be difficult to tell if there is a growth ring or not. I have included the areas of tropical forests to show that there can be multiple growth rings per year, and that basically a tree is a tree is a tree.
Here in the west I can remember seeing large trees with growth ring anomalies shown in the local museums of national parks where uncertainty prevailed in the reading of rings due to weather patterns.
Bottom line? Tree's don't have birthday's. :)
https://www.theforestacademy.com/tree-knowledge/annual-growth-rings/#.VoyxRI9FyUk
Annual rings generally exist in trees where the climate halts growth at some point during the year. In our country, winter causes this shutdown. In other countries, it is the dry season. Growth begins again in the spring or rainy season.
But what happens to trees growing in countries where there is no alternation between growth and rest periods?
For example, a country where it rains all year long! Remember that all trees grow by adding successive rings. So in such an area, the beginning and end of the growth period may occur any time during the year, depending on the local conditions.
Some trees in tropical forests, like the okoumé (Gaboon), manage to create several dozen very thin rings in a year, and never the same number from one year to the next. It is often difficult, even impossible, to distinguish them with the naked eye. In such cases, it is extremely hard to determine the age of the tree.
http://www.priweb.org/globalchange/climatechange/studyingcc/scc_01.html Dendrochronology is the study of climate change as recorded by tree growth rings. Each year, trees add a layer of growth between the older wood and the bark. This layer, or ring as seen in cross section, can be wide, recording a wet season, or narrow, recording a dry growing season. Because the rings are basically recording a good growing season or a bad growing season, they are indirectly recording more than just moisture. They also document temperature and cloud cover as they impact tree growth as well. This record of annual summer information is very important when you consider that certain types of trees grow slowly over hundreds and hundreds of years, and therefore contain a record of as many years of climate and climate change.
There are limitations to this research though. Trees in the temperate zone only record the growing season, so the winter season, no matter how dramatic, will not be seen in the ring record. Interestingly, trees in tropical regions grow year round and therefore show no real obvious annual growth rings. Therefore climate data from equatorial areas is difficult to piece out and use. The record is limited geographically in another way too. Trees do not grow in all places on Earth, therefore we don’t have a tree ring record of climate change for each region and ecologic niche globally. (No trees in polar regions, high in the mountains, in the ocean!!!)
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On 1/6/2016 12:57 AM, OFWW wrote:

And yet they are called "Annual" Growth rings. That still sounds like a new ring each year.
And from your link,
Each year, the tree forms new cells, arranged in concentric circles called annual rings or annual growth rings. These annual rings show the amount of wood produced during one growing season.

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On 01/06/2016 2:06 PM, Leon wrote:

...

...

As noted earlier, that's fine for temperate-zone regions but "not so much" in tropical areas. US FPL points out that that is poor terminology...

And, from just a little farther down in the same link--
"Trees in Tropical Countries
Annual rings generally exist in trees where the climate halts growth at some point during the year. In our country, winter causes this shutdown. In other countries, it is the dry season. Growth begins again in the spring or rainy season.
But what happens to trees growing in countries where there is no alternation between growth and rest periods?
For example, a country where it rains all year long! Remember that all trees grow by adding successive rings. So in such an area, the beginning and end of the growth period may occur any time during the year, depending on the local conditions.
Some trees in tropical forests, like the okoumé (Gaboon), manage to create several dozen very thin rings in a year, and never the same number from one year to the next. It is often difficult, even impossible, to distinguish them with the naked eye. In such cases, it is extremely hard to determine the age of the tree."
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ROTFL, Annual growth rings the term fits to everyone's satisfaction. But that only works in areas with one growth cycle per year.
The last couple years here we have had two growth seasons each year, literally, played havoc with the veggies, but the tree's seemed to handle it fine. It would be nice to core the tree and then core it again just to see or verify what the tree did for those years. It isn't common, but it is not unusual.
Bottom line I guess we all see what we want.
And then a North American heads to Australia and gets confused because the toilet flushes opposite than it does here. ;)

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On 01/06/2016 4:43 PM, OFWW wrote: ...

...
I'd venture _most_ didn't actually go through two fully dormant cycles and wouldn't show up a second ring therefore but it would be interesting to do a core sample, indeed...
--


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Normally I wouldn't have thought so either, but we had a short hot winter followed by some quick freezes, all the trees that were budding and growing fruit, lost all their fruit an some leaves, then a mild winter for a couple weeks, and then a repeat of the cycle. I was thinking that the poor trees and plants must be getting confused because or the strange weather sequences.
I had a great laugh through it all as the weather men and new people were really hamming up the heat wave, and talking about the seriousness of GW, and after a couple weeks of that going on the temp dropped to below freezing then hovered down low and made them all look a bit skittish for a while.
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On 01/06/2016 8:52 PM, OFWW wrote:

That's an el Nino cycle for ya'...
We've been thru the 5-6 years of severe (Cat IV on national drought monitor like CA that you hear about; nobody much cares about "flyover country") until the worm turned suddenly about first of June and have been (by our standards, anyways, wet since). Included w/ the pattern is the jet stream pattern that includes blocking the extreme Canadian cold from the northern midwest/northeast...
They've been touting how this year is the "strongest since the '80s!!!!" not bothering to mention they've only had tracking data from roughly that time which is only 30 years; absolutely nothing in terms of overall climate. Meanwhile, there are records that the Peruvian fishermen knew of it in early 17th century and undoubtedly actually much earlier than that so it's certainly nothing new; we just now are beginning to understand how it affects global weather patterns.
There's a NOAA fella' in the Dodge City office finishing up his doctoral dissertation who works the night shift and on occasion will write in some depth on his work in the area in the "behind the scene" internal discussion distributed as part of the workings behind the daily forecast. Quite interesting how it's all so intertwined.
My hypothesis is that if one had the data one could show that in fact the "Dirty 30's" dustbowl was tied in with a strong La Nina (the opposite of the El Nino) which is associated with the strong jet stream buckle to the north which shunts all the rain-producing t-storm producing systems to the east of the western High Plains leaving us with the similar situation we've just been through. IOW, imo there's "nothing new under the sun"; we're just not a long-lived enough species to be able to see the big picture in short term patterns and have fallen into the trap of thinking we're more important than we are.
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On 1/7/2016 9:34 AM, dpb wrote:

Exactly! Concerning not enough data to make a reasonable assumption about the long term weather patterns.
This we do know, the weather is unpredictable and has been changing for centuries.
Now that computers are every where every one is an expert on the weather using the vast amount of data that has only recently become available to everyone. I highly suspect that in 200 years future generations will look at the global warming crisis somewhat like the Salem Witch trials.
Had we had access to computers and weather data 60 years ago like we have in the last 30 or so years I'm certain that we would be looking at the weather much differently. Thank goodness we did what we did to curb global cooling in the 70's and 80's so that we would not all freeze. There simply is not enough data to make anything close to accurate assumptions about recent history weather patterns.
I find it ironic that in general we did not have these global weather problems until we felt compelled to do something about them. Here is where you should follow the money to see how conclusions have been propped up.
There is just way too much to take into consideration to make any assumption that anything we change can change the weather.
Is the weather getting warmer, probably. Is that a bad thing? Perhaps the earth's weather is adjusting naturally to provide more or longer growing seasons to supply food for the growing population. If we were actually able to cool things down and shorten the growing seasons, would we be able to grow enough food to feed the planet?
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I think you both are dead on in this. When I was a kid I read a lot of those old English classic novels, Like Heidi and her Grandpa, Daniel Defoe's stuff, the books of the various countries and Ice skating on the Danube and the like, all icy cold, etc. And then with all the talk on GW, people mentioned the various ice ages, and in the 14-1600'a there was a mini ice age, or was it 1200-?? Can't remember at the moment, but those icy stories were tied in with the tale end of the last mini ice age. Millions died not just from the freezing cold, but the lack of food. Seems that right before that there was a GW period which was so warm that food was growing where it wouldn't before, and the oceans were calm because of it, and allowed the Phoenicians to travel to the US in their reed boats, as well as the Vikings in their ships. Populations spread and grew because of it all, but when the mini ice age hit it was major misery for most everyone and brought things to a screaming halt. Lack of food, lack of livable land and so on.
So in a way those books were recordings of the weather pattern and cycle and if we all paid attention to history we wouldn't be crying like Chicken Little.
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or like our illustrious leader...

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On Wed, 6 Jan 2016 20:14:57 -0500, Mike Marlow

ROTFLOL!! You owe me a new keyboard, just spit out my coffee.
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On 1/6/2016 5:43 PM, OFWW wrote:

The water goes ... UP???
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email.me:

That's why outhouses are so common in Australia even though the rest of the world has had indoor plumbing for decades.
Most places on the earth suck, Australia blows.
Puckdropper
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wrote:

The water when it drains spins in the opposite direction. Toilers designed for here would not flush properly there.
The line of demarcation is the equator.
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wrote:

Relatively, yes. ;-)
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