In our fondest dreams ...

[Leon]

I was tininking more in terms of the countries that you left out. The middle east countires where voter participation is required. Remember Sadam?

[DGDevin]

Plenty of people don't vote for the same reason they don't pay their child support, don't show up for work on time, don't go back to school so they can get a better job, don't stop hanging out with their loser buddies from High School, don't stop spending all their spare money on dope and strip-bars, don't fix the dripping tap in the bathroom, don't plan for the future and so on and so forth--because they're losers who don't give a damn for much of anything but their immediate gratification. Do we seriously expect such people to take an interest in politics?

There are also people with poor education and little economic opportunity to speak of who live paycheck to paycheck. They don't vote because their parents didn't vote and they see no reason to break with tradition, their life never seems to get any better just because the other party wins office. Again, by what miracle should we expect these people to suddenly take a keen interest in civic affairs? And when someone goes into the inner city (or depressed rural areas) and registers such folks and helps them get to the polling place then we hear the sort of arguments recently posted here--such people shouldn't even be allowed to vote because they're not property-holders--it's enough to make one wonder if we shouldn't sign the country back to the British Crown.

[DGDevin]

I think you take yourself and your political views a bit too seriously, either than or you just enjoy taking a gloomy view of everything. There are democratic nations that make voting mandatory and they haven't slid into despotism as you predict, so unclench your teeth a bit sport, you'll hurt yourself.

[DGDevin]

Why do I suspect that if six of the ten registered voters show up and vote for the candidate you disapprove of that you'd still be pissed-off?

[Dave Balderstone]

Try looking at Detroit through Google Earth.

It's incredible. Entire blocks with only one house left. Lots of entire blocks...

[Lee Michaels]

I saw an article recently where farmers are reclaiming industrial land in Detroit to grow crops. They say it is cheaper to lease the land there than in farm country.

[Tim Daneliuk]

Europeans were not responsible for the initiation of African slavery as commonly taught.

Africans enslaved Westerners first.

Ah, at last some resonance.

Why are Europeans held to a different standard of contempt for slavery (which they rapidly abolished) than Africans that continue the practice until this very day?

Can you function in a public context without being dishonest? There is nothing above that is materially a slogan or cheap shot. It is an argument built up point-by-point. The fact that it escapes you is an indication of your limitations, not mine.

What is feeble is your attempt to recast what I wrote. My point is not that "other cultures had slavery too" but that they had it for a very long time and only Western nations under the influence of Judeo-Christianity abolished it quickly. Yet someone, slavery has become the one argument that gets used to try to undermine the brilliance and greatness of the American Framers.

I've "overlooked" no such thing. But you see, this conversation was in the context of US law and history. Britain's history on the matter is irrelevant to the discussion at hand - much like your entire post.

[Doug Miller]

I guess I missed that.

[Mike Marlow]

Reference your very words above, which I had quoted in my reply. You very clearly state the reason people don't vote. You further state that they are often too uninformed therefore should not vote. That is what I called you on. People vote on what is important to them. That is a very real part of the voting process. You don't have to like it, but that's life. It's not yours to decide if that qualifies them to vote, or to state that those who do not vote are simply too lazy.

I propose no such thing. You need to stop trying to assign thoughts and motives to other people. You only serve to embarass yourself when you are wrong.

You are too transparent. Those who disagree with you must all be asses.

[Lew Hodgett]

That's VERY old news.

Came as a direct result of the Detroit race riots of the 60s.

Whitey fled to the burbs in mass leaving a dust trail behind after the riots.

Ask somebody, "Where you from?", and they would answer "burb name of choice", never "Detroit".

East side of Cleveland was abandoned in the same way after the 60s riots there.

Still abandoned when I left 20 years ago.

Lew

[CW]

Agreed.

[Lew Hodgett]

=====================================

Unfortunately, much of Detroit is not prepared to fill today's jobs.

Computer related activities seem to be going begging for lack of available talent.

Computer game programmers, Google, etc, all have openings for qualified people.

There are lots of economic opportunities, just need to be prepared to handle them.

Doom and gloom has always been around.

It still remains what it is, total crap.

Lew

[LDosser]

Toledo was flooded with goods supposedly stolen during the Dee-troyt riots. Most of it watches and jewelry recently imported from Japan, with brands such as Bluvola, Eglin and Ralex.

[CW]

Scrap all of that.

How about a minimum IQ standard???

OK. What would be your standard? I vote for 150.

[Neil Brooks]

Your language says otherwise.

Your language says otherwise. If you don't like his supporters, then demonize them, but -- for a lark -- try doing it like an adult might.

Meanwhile, your schoolyard name-calling (ie, "Messiah") is naught but silly and puerile.

That's America. The words "General welfare" mean anything to you??

Then lower yourself to THEIR level by twisting the benevolent meaning of that phrase ... and/or outlaw religion on the same premise.

Nah. Your argument went "thud" when it fell down.

Hm. That certainly just sounds like your own vision of the collective good.

And nobody could EVER get hurt by that worldview, huh? And no illegitimate wars could EVER be started if that's the deal, right?

Your former argument now has company on the floor.

Proof by assertion, huh?

And yet ... the elements of "general welfare" that absorb a lot of tax dollars ARE some of the primary things that Americans crow about when marketing their nation to ... nobody in particular.

means - to see

se that is stealing.

Cut a few words, and it'll fit nicely on a bumper sticker.

[Neil Brooks]

As a native of that particular town ... do you also assume that -- after this latest airplane-bomber attempt -- air travel is inherently unsafe?

Sample size issues, anybody??

[Neil Brooks]

At the risk of being immodest, I'm going to be sucking up all the coffee and eating the last of the donuts after everybody else has pushed the bar up as high as they might like.

But ... that's just me ... :-)

I also think it IS a silly way to choose who votes and who doesn't, and was hoping to indicate how unlikely it was that anybody (certainly here, but ... generally) was ever going to draw a line that stood ANY chance of leaving THEM outside of the polling place.

See you at the polls!

[Larry Blanchard]

I have an even simpler idea which, of course, also doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell.

One of the big problems is congress/senate members sending pork to their home state to buy their re-election. So:

All representatives and senators, after their initial election, will have no choice of venue when running for re-election. They will be randomly assigned a state/district and must convince the voters of that state to re-elect them.

[Larry Blanchard]

Because it helps keep the *greater* evil out of office :-).

[Neil Brooks]

Then they'll just send the pork home to THAT district, and campaign for District Y based on their track record of bringing home ample bacon. Re-election rates for incumbents would likely remain static.

Nah. If anybody wanted serious change, two things need to happen:

1) Some sort of serious lobbying reform, and 2) Public financing of all federal campaigns, only.

There is no single factor that corrupts our political process/system as much as the infiltration of money into its core.

The other corrupting elements, in aggregate, don't come anywhere CLOSE to measuring up.