In our fondest dreams ...

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On 12/30/2009 8:45 AM, Doug Miller wrote:

+1
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On 12/30/2009 8:11 AM, Swingman wrote:

Hmm. And how would you go about determining which partner should be disenfranchised in a divorce? By their political views?
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On 12/30/2009 10:14 AM, Morris Dovey wrote:

Women should not be ... errr, never mind. :)
BTW, women automatically get the house in a divorce! Problem solved. <g>
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BTDT
It's the latest pick-up line in a bar: "Hello gorgeous, can I buy you a house?"
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Why should they get *two* votes?

Psst! They get the house without a divorce, too. Once you say "I do", she gets. ;-)
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Bull, giving political power only to those with wealth is repugnant, you couldn't come up with something that would make politicians and lobbyists happier. The ability of the people to throw morons and crooks out of office is one of the few things that keep the bastards in line.
Are you going to tell a youth who volunteers to risk his life serving his country in uniform that he doesn't get to vote because he doesn't have any property? If the mill closes and people lose their jobs and their homes should that result in them losing the vote? Do you seriously propose that citizens who rent apartments are inherently entitled to fewer rights than people who own houses?
No offense, but that is one lameass idea.
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On 12/30/2009 12:27 PM, DGDevin wrote:

Tell that to your founding fathers, who first instituted the practice.
I didn't say I liked it, I said what the idealism inherent in the "right to vote for "everyman"" would result in ... in practice it will lead to the eventual decline of this country.
Look around you ... the country is in decline, it is happening before your very eyes, although many are too blind or ignorant to see it, mainly due to the piss poor educational system foisted upon us by the very concept itself ...
The reluctance to accept it as being at the root of the phenomenon is understandable, but it will one day be as obvious as the nose on your face. Count on it.
Again, sad, but true ...
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You mean ... of course ... the slave-owning founding fathers?
Do you have a calendar handy? Do you realize this is ... effectively ... 2010??
If you yearn for those times, I can list for you a HOST of emerging nations whose systems much more closely resemble that of our earliest days as a nation.
[nothing of relevance snipped]
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On 12/30/2009 1:05 PM, Neil Brooks wrote:

Since you insist on harping on slavery, let me acquaint you with some realities of slavery you're conveniently ignoring:
- Slavery in some form has existed in all of recorded human history.
- The slavery that brought Africans to the US was instituted BY Africans AGAINST Africans long before the Europeans ever showed up.
- African Muslim pirates (the Barbary Corsairs) attacked and enslaved white Europeans well before the Europeans ever engaged in slavery themselves. These pirates operated from the 11th century through the 19th by some accounts.
- Of all major cultures ONLY the Judeo-Christian influenced Westerners *gave up slavery voluntarily*, whether by internal civil war or legislative decree.
- One of the two places in the world you can still buy slaves in large numbers is ... wait for it ... AFRICA. (Somalia and Mauretania to be exact. The other is the white slavery going on in the Eastern Bloc and Islamic worlds.)
So, before you get too haughty about the eeeeeeeeeevil Founding Fathers, you might want to ponder their context and realize that in less than 100 years after the US was formed as a nation (1776-1865) slavery was abolished. We got rid of something in a hundred years that had been going on for 10 *thousand* before. It was EXACTLY because of the ideals of these people and their fundamental principles of government that slavery could not and did not survive. Dismissing them as mere slavers with a corrupt morality utterly misses the point.
So, just why do you and your fellow politically correct travelers leap at the opportunity to criticize the founders of the US - founders that led us on a path of freedom for more people, more rapidly than at any point in history - BUT you're entirely silent about the millennia of slavery and human rights abuses in Africa and the rest of the world? world?
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Eloquent, but ... sadly ... in the end ... pointless.
They also owned slaves. You may say that was "right for their times" or ... something equivalent, but ... many "knew better," and the practice was relatively speedily abolished.
The notion that others did it before them, or that it still goes on elsewhere, likewise, does nothing to the argument.
It's a fools effort to declare that things that were right in 1776 are therefore automatically right, now.
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On 12/30/09 2:08 PM, Neil Brooks wrote:

Talk about missing the point.
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On 12/30/2009 2:08 PM, Neil Brooks wrote:

And I'm saying no such thing. I'm saying that denying the essential correctness of the Founders' ideas because they happened to live at a time slavery was "normal", really misses the genius of their contribution. The fact is that ALL Americans today are victims of slavery in some sense. We are all paying the bitter harvest of this most evil of practices. But if we not place this in context by also admiring the 99% that was right about our founders we end up beating ourselves up needlessly and thereby miss the essence of American exceptionalism. i.e. We start to take the modern political left seriously rather than heaping the scorn upon it, so richly deserved...
Again, I ask: Where is the similar level of outrage against the Islamists that are this very day buying African slaves? Why is there no hue and cry directed against the Somalis and Mauretanians for their slaving? If Jefferson, Madison, et al were wrong for not immediately stopping slavery after less than 300 years of Western presence in the New World, why are you not also up in arms about the Barbary Barbarians that predated them by several hundred years and continued the practice another hundred thereafter? Methinks there is political agenda here ...
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So what?

So what?

So what?

Good for them.

So what?

Are you capable of speaking in anything but slogans? Your posts are peppered with buzzwords from the rabid-right, can't you function without borrowing their group-speak?
As for your argument, pointing out that other cultures had slavery too, as if that's a valid excuse to continue it in America, is a feeble notion. You've also overlooked that Britain abolished slavery before the United States, and they managed to do it without the U.S. Constitution, imagine that.
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On 12/30/2009 4:20 PM, DGDevin wrote:

Europeans were not responsible for the initiation of African slavery as commonly taught.

Africans enslaved Westerners first.

Ah, at last some resonance.

Why are Europeans held to a different standard of contempt for slavery (which they rapidly abolished) than Africans that continue the practice until this very day?

Can you function in a public context without being dishonest? There is nothing above that is materially a slogan or cheap shot. It is an argument built up point-by-point. The fact that it escapes you is an indication of your limitations, not mine.

What is feeble is your attempt to recast what I wrote. My point is not that "other cultures had slavery too" but that they had it for a very long time and only Western nations under the influence of Judeo-Christianity abolished it quickly. Yet someone, slavery has become the one argument that gets used to try to undermine the brilliance and greatness of the American Framers.

I've "overlooked" no such thing. But you see, this conversation was in the context of US law and history. Britain's history on the matter is irrelevant to the discussion at hand - much like your entire post.
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On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 14:20:11 -0800, the infamous "DGDevin"

PDFTFT
-- Sex is Evil, Evil is Sin, Sin is Forgiven. Gee, ain't religion GREAT?
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wrote:

Lost track of the chronology, here. WHO, in this case, IS the FT??
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They tolerated slavery too, does that mean it was a bad idea to end the practice?

Again, bull. People have been bemoaning the supposed decline of the country as long as the country has existed, some folks just seem to enjoy forecasting doom.
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On 12/30/2009 4:13 PM, DGDevin wrote:

A country not in decline? You've seen Detroit lately, Bubba?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Hlbsw3bQy8

Did you think that you would ever see the likes of this in the USA?
Not in delcine, eh?
Now that _is_ "bull"!
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Try looking at Detroit through Google Earth.
It's incredible. Entire blocks with only one house left. Lots of entire blocks...
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"Dave Balderstone" wrote in message wrote:

I saw an article recently where farmers are reclaiming industrial land in Detroit to grow crops. They say it is cheaper to lease the land there than in farm country.
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