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On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker

I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that means better sound.
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On 2/3/2012 9:36 AM, Dave wrote:

what you heard about stranded wire and electrons is correct. I wasn't suggesting using romex for speakers (although i doubt a difference could be detected) but 18, 16, or 14 ga. zip cord from the hardware store is just as finely stranded as any hi dollar cable and will do just fine.
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 23:54:34 -0500, "J. Clarke"

You been hibernating Mr. Clarke? This topic was discussed completely several weeks ago.
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I've noticed several of his messages seem to appear in a row with various dates. Perhaps his newsserver isn't working correctly.
Puckdropper
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On 2/28/2012 7:56 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

I too have noticed the same thing. It happened a week or so ago, and I just now got about 10 more of them.
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On 2/3/2012 9:36 AM, Dave wrote:

Well, that's accomodated by the number of strands and size/strand in stranded vs solid wire of same gauge...
At human-audible frequencies, there simply isn't any signal distortion of a measurable magnitude that could be discerned audibly.
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On 2/3/2012 9:43 AM, dpb wrote:

Ahh, but "human audible" frequencies are only part of the story.
It is well known that _third order harmonics_, well above "human audible" frequencies, do color the sound within the human audible frequencies.
AAMOF, a trained listener, like a recording engineer, relies on these third order harmonics to make a distinction between good sound and excellent sound.
(It's one of the reasons why us old fart recording engineers, like Bruce Swedien who did most of Michael Jackson's and Barbara Streisand's work, among others, can still record and mix with the best at an advanced age.
... that is, we could before the Nyquist frequency limits of digital sampling rates robbed us of anything above half the sampling frequency. :(
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On 2/3/2012 10:00 AM, Swingman wrote:

If they're a measurable component, it's because they've been generated somewhere else than in the cable, though, and modulated into the human range of hearing.
The cable by and of itself, won't be doing that.
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On 2/3/2012 11:53 AM, dpb wrote:

My point, once again ... your remark "there simply isn't any signal distortion of a measurable magnitude that could be discerned audibly" is not the entire story of what can be "discerned audibly".
No argument that the content getting to your ear was indeed generated elsewhere, but one of the paths to your ear of the reproduced content is, under discussion ... a cable. :)
What is getting to your ear, including overtones and harmonics, can definitely be degraded by that cable.
Perhaps I misunderstood your context ... or you misunderstood mine?
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On 2/3/2012 12:07 PM, Swingman wrote: ...

No.
I'm saying that in the audible range there's not going to be enough degradation owing to the wire chosen for audio cable that one is going to be able to measure it, what more hear it audibly. The range at which such effects of attenuation, reflection, etc., etc., is simply only an issue at the MHz and higher frequencies; far, far beyond the audio.
Anything higher than that in the signal path that are modulated into the audio range to form "color" are, of course, audible (that is, in fact a tautology :) ) but even third/fifth/and higher overtones are still way below the point at which those effects are significant owing to gold or "extra-pure Cu" or whatever marketing BS they want to dream up.
Microwave, ultrasonics, highspeed digital, yes. Audio, no.
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On 2/3/2012 12:46 PM, dpb wrote:

Yes
I'm saying ... do a side by side comparison with fifty feet of electric extension cord, and ten feet of a high quality audio cable, to a good set of speakers and tell me most listeners, and particularly a trained one, will not hear the difference.
My ears are 69 years old, but I'd lay a wager any day that I could still accurately AB the difference, with familiar content in a familiar environment.
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On 2/3/2012 12:57 PM, Swingman wrote:

Well, to be fair, compare 10-ft of each but I'll bet you can't in a truly blind test w/ the identical inputs and non-faulty connections.
I looked at it in the lab w/ a signal analyzer in years gone by when a coworker who was an audiophile was making the same claims and there simply wasn't any measurable difference in the signal. You can't (and no one else can) hear what isn't there and there isn't material attenuation or reflection at those frequencies which are audible to be significant (unless, of course, somebody doctors the connectors to add attenuators or other such shenanigans.
At that time (mid-70s) I recall there was at least one uncovering of one how the patch cords at an audio outlet had been so modified and it was how they were convincing folks they could hear the difference. In that case, of course, they could. When a straight plug was used, all of a sudden the difference went away for some reason... :)
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On 2/3/2012 1:10 PM, dpb wrote:

Laughable folly to any acoustic engineer. :)
It is fruitless, if not impossible, to compare the non-linear, physiological properties of human hearing to a instrument signal analyzer ... period, zero, zip, nada ... any comparison simply does not _scientifically_ equate.

Wanna bet?
A very common (due to psychoacoustic properties of the human ear) phenomenon in the studio is a "ghost sound" on a recording; a sound not actually physically recorded, but heard very clearly when two or more tracks are combined to excite partials and overtones ...
... IOW, you are indeed "hearing what isn't there".
:)

Totally besides the point in our discussion.

Again, nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
As another poster said succinctly stated, if you can't hear the difference, it is pointless to even discuss it.
That pretty well sums it up. :)
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On 2/3/2012 2:27 PM, Swingman wrote:

Last, first...
But then it is there, but it's generated past the wire in the air and that can, indeed, be measured.
For the point of what matters regarding the wiring, it _is_ exactly equatable. If, given the same inputs, there is no attenuation or amplification or distortion in the wire that is discernible, then the output will be indiscernible audibly if that input is converted to sound by the same speaker.
Whatever is generated owing to distortion, harmonics, etc., etc., in the speaker and the environment is there, certainly, but it had nothing to do w/ the two wires over which the output of the amplifier was transmitted to the speaker.
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On 2/3/2012 3:15 PM, dpb wrote:

Once again: It is fruitless, if not impossible, to compare the non-linear, physiological properties of human hearing to a instrument signal analyzer ... period, zero, zip, nada ... any comparison simply does not _scientifically_ equate.
If, given the same inputs, there is no attenuation or

"If these higher frequencies are not passed through any link of the audio chain (including the cable), the lack thereof will most definitely degrade what it was _intended to be reproduced_ for your hearing enjoyment."
Not at all difficult to comprehend.
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Have to completely disagree here but all the parameters need to be measured that affect human hearing. Usual distortion measurements are not enough.
One parameter that isn't usually discussed is the damping a good amplifier output provides to a set of speakers.
When a speaker is hit with an electrical thump (high frequency edge) it tends to resonate and reproduce it's natural frequency on ringing basis. This produced an induced voltage of very low magnitude. If a long or poor quality cable is used that isolates the absorption effect of a good, low impedance, amplifier output from the speaker the damping is lost and the sound gets muddy. This is equivalent of removing all the acoustic damping material out of the back of the speaker enclosure.
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On 2/3/2012 3:15 PM, dpb wrote:

Once again: It is fruitless, if not impossible, to compare the non-linear, physiological properties of human hearing to a instrument signal analyzer ... period, zero, zip, nada ... any comparison simply does not _scientifically_ equate.
If, given the same inputs, there is no attenuation or

"If these higher frequencies are not passed through any link of the audio chain (including the cable), the lack thereof will most definitely degrade what it was _intended to be reproduced_ for your hearing enjoyment."
Not at all difficult to comprehend.
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Having watched people in stores do audio comparisons many times before, I'll bet the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to tell a nasty (10% THD) signal from a clean (0.01% THD) signal thru good or bad speakers with either cable. </cynicism>

Good for you. Point: Most people don't -care- to discern even if they could do so.
Listen to the levels and distortions of car audio every time you're on the street. It will tell you a lot. That people allow themselves to be bombarded by Muzak in elevators and beeps from computer games all these years should tell you some more. (Egad!)
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What I would really like to know is if I use Monster Cables to operate my Festool TS75 will it sound better.
Max
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Max wrote:

It will ound sawsome!
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On 2/3/2012 8:57 PM, Max wrote:

no, but it will cost more. Same as adding a monster cable to ANYthing.
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