I love the change of seasons. The occasional gray day, after weeks of bright sunlight. That crispness, after months of heat. The first snowflakes.
The days get shorter. The first green buds that appear. The days that grow longer...
The light restrictions on the big island are certainly true. However, both Kona and Hilo still send a large quantity of light upwards. I've conducted astronomical observations several times a year over the past few years on the summit of Mauna Kea, and can vouch that both Kona and Hilo are quite bright at night. They certainly are not as bright as other cities of the same size that don't have light restrictions. But it is becoming a problem at the observatory. Waimea and Honokaa are also quite visible from the summit.
What people seem to not understand is that lighting the sky does not provide added ground level security and also wastes energy. Using smartly designed lights that direct all of their light downward can make the street level considerably brighter and safer, while significantly reducing sky brightness and energy usage. Unfortunately, these light fixtures are generally more expensive up front, which seems to trump their long term energy efficiency benefits in most consumers minds.
Chad
I am sure that you could if you were willing to build out the distribution network for the community and keep it maintained and do all the individual billing and collections, with the inevitable bad debt but you have to keep supplying them anyhow, and absorb the costs during low usage periods when the overhead charge you apply doesn't actually cover the overhead required to maintain sufficient capacity to serve everyone's needs during the peak usage periods..... (any idea what the cost is when a single neighborhhood step-down transformer blows and needs replaced on an emergency basis while it is 10 below outside)
Dave Hall
Sky & Telescope magazine, the Fine Woodworking of that hobby, estimates that more than half the people in the world, and 2/3 of those in the United States, cannot see the Milky Way. During the recent blackout in New York, people were calling the police to report a strange huge cloud over the city. Yep--our galaxy.
I have a famous poster of the United States (there's one of Europe also) at night, taken by satellites, that shows the entire country lit by unrestricted lighting. It's easy to pick out your own home town. The question is, why are they visible from space? Aren't lights supposed to illuminate the ground?
The loss of the night sky is not only saddening, it is unnecessary. As an amateur astronomer I know that a high percentage of our lighting is misdirected, and that proper shielding would not only preserve the sky but--more importantly for most people--save huge amounts of money. San Diego changed to a more sophisticated lighting some years ago and saved the taxpayers about $300,000.
And of course we all know the effect of bright lighting in reducing crime?
The International Dark-Sky Association
Bob
Chad's right. I'm also an amateur astronomer and can vouch for better lighting. See my post elsewhere in thsi thread for information on the International Dark-Sky Assocoation. The price of sensible lighting fixtures is coming down, and the payback time lessened considerably. A number of communities nationwide and around the world have adopted reasonable lighting ordinances, but the problem is growing. As long as we insist on providing circus lighting for our homes and businesses it won't be solved.
Bob
when i fly over a city at night, a lot of light is reflected off the ground back into the sky. shielding the light wouldn't have any affect on this.
The electrical company is responsable for maintaining lines. The company that maintains the lines is not the one that I buy electricity from. I live in Houston and buy my electricity from a company in Dallas.
with the inevitable bad debt but you have to keep supplying them anyhow, and absorb the costs
If the HOA took care of the billing it could cut the power off to the family that does not pay the bill. I suspect that the home owners in my small subdivision could save at least $225,000.00 per year. 3 years ago a family was ecvicted from their home and their home repaired and sold. They refused to pay the HOA anual bill of $250.00. I really do not think there would be problem with non payment.
(any idea
That will never happen in Houston. Transformers will blow but still the electric company will be responsible for the repair.
Sorry I just can't resist. About twenty years ago I was the !@#$%^&* who raised electric rates. Done the expert witness thing etc. Two points:
1-In most NA electrical systems the energy used for street lights comes from a hydro, coal or nuclear unit. Rarely do we need to run an oil fired unit to cover early AM load. Sorry we can't stop buying Mid East oil for that use.2-Yes, there is a stark difference in price from small customers to medium and large ones. The larger customers buy their electricity at higher voltages and the costs of those pole mounted transformers, distribution wires, etc. don't exist. Second, they tend to buy a higher percentage during those lower cost back hours. Third, it costs just slightly more to read a meter and bill a large customer so there can be a volume difference. Fourth, customer service costs are generally lower so there can be a volume discount, big customers don't call in nearly as often. Fifth, problems with no pay and slow pay are higher with residential and small commercial customers so that is factored into the rates. And it goes on.
The PUC is supposed to examine in detail whether a class of customers is paying more or less than their "fair share". The large customers have their own lawyers in the process and residential customers are usually well represented by public advocates (well funded also usually from your electric bill). The customers that tend to get "oppressed" are the small commercial ones. That's why you want to avoid a separate meter for your shop.
Yes a whole neighborhood can buy in bulk under some conditions. For example many large apartment/condo buildings in NYC do just that. However the building (neighborhood) then has to provide individual billing, transfomers, meters etc. If its provided by the landlord there is no savings. Otherwise there are some but offset by costs.
Final point-In states where you can buy your own energy (like TX) big customers are doing relatively well, but the costs of marketing to and serving small customers chews up a lot of the savings. Unfortunately for TX they bet on many new natural gas generating units and their fuel costs have doubled in the last two years raising costs on the "free market" substantially.
Howard
Yup, I live in Texas. I just wish that the power companies would let us buy electricity when we needed it. During peak periods the price world be more expansive and during the winter, weekends, and night hours the price would be cheaper. I was part of a pilot program in 1996-1997 that my local electricity company tried out. My electric bill was less than $1,077.00 for that whole that year. My electric bill the following year after the program was terminated went up to $1,339.00 with only a 5% increase of usage.
That said, my electric rates last year were basically the same as they were in 1998.
Boy, I wish the municiple sheds across the street would jump on the sensible lighting wagon... directly out my window, there are six high-power arc-sodium floodlights to illuminate pole sheds with no one in them. They run year-round, and all the sheds are there for is to hold snowplows. The entire block is bright enough to read by day and night, year-round.
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam
On 10 Nov 2004 16:12:22 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) calmly ranted:
The astronomers at Mt. Palomar Observatory had been screaming for years about the light pollution in North San Diego County when the county decided to change over to the amber lights which kept the vertical glare down to a bare minimum. I applauded their sense.
Here ya go. Mario pointed me at this earlier this week and I'm very glad. I've never seen them in person.
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Been seeing the Northern Lights up here in the UP also they are beautiful.
OK maybe not oil, but we could burn less coal. There is still cost associated with the lighting and if it is not needed, someone, someplace, has to save money, pollute less or otherwise come out ahead.
Try this:
Of course not. But this is an extremely small percentage of the total amount of light now being broadcast upward. One example is very high-powered billboard lights aimed upward. Another is the insane amount of lighting auto dealers use to light their lots after business hours. It may be required by their insurance companies to protect millions of dollars of inventory, but that's not the point here. The lights could easily be properly shielded and directed to the ground, performing their intended function without waste. Sensible shielded lighting uses lower wattage bulbs to achieve the same effect, thus reducing the amount of reflected light.
Bob
Bob
Wed, Nov 10, 2004, 10:11am (EST+5) snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie=A0Self) says: I love this time of year, early morning before it's light, and nippy air that helps clear the head. Today, I need to cut some cabinet doors, and I don't want to waste plywood, so I was standing outside thinking it out--this sometimes works better than pencil and paper
I do that, exactly the same way. Except later in the day.
JOAT Viet Nam, divorce, cancer. Been there, done that. Now, where the Hell are my T-shirts?
Bob Schmall responds:
Even then...on I77 south just as you exit Charleston, WV there's a Ford dealer with incredibly bright lights on his/her inventory. It actually blinds you as you come down the road, and is a true hazard on wet nights. I drove that road off and on for 2-1/2 years and evidently there were no local complaints, so the lights stayed as they are. I'd bet they are still that way. Dual pollution, IMO, plus adding unnecessary danger to an already hazardous drive.
Charlie Self "It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office." H. L. Mencken
Ya, we try to get up to 12 mile beach once or twice a year, there isn't any light pollution there yet..
Bob, I am one of those insane auto dealers. We do use a significant amount of light on our lots. The lamps are 1000w Metal Halide. They are shielded and focused only to point down and trimed to stay on the lot but it still a large amount of light. However, on the non-display areas we used HPS lamps and they reduce the amount of bounced light. We do leave 20% of the display lights on after hours for security.
I wish there was a better method.
Dave
I hate it when they do that! Don't know how many times I've run into similar lighting over the years.
In the same vein, many yrs. ago in Indianapolis, driving down Madison Ave.(4 lane divided blvd. with cross traffic) at night, there had been an accident on the Northbound side, but as we were driving South, couldn't see ANYTHING except a pair of blinding headlights until we got to it, then we could see the flashing lights on top of the police car. Tried to ask an officer standing in the middle of the intersection to dim them so people could tell there was an emergency instead of just being blinded, and was told to "Get the H*ll out of here". To be honest, I don't believe this was a State or Sheriff, not even a City boy, but a local Constable, who I've discovered over the years often have their heads up a long dark tunnel, blinded by their own authority. It was pure good luck he didn't have a second accident to go with the original one due to his asinine attitude.
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