Do you care where your tools are manufactured?

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On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:28:41 -0700, Mark & Juanita

Maybe Americans need to grow up and deal with the reality that oil reserves are rapidly running out.

It will be a stopgap measure at best, the fact is that China and India are sucking up tons of gasoline now that they're becoming massively industrialized and it will only get worse from here. Sure, you might be able to suck another 10-20 years of oil out of Alaska but in the end, we're going to be back in the same place with too much demand and not enough oil to go around.
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Brian Henderson wrote:

Only if the currently active tapped reserves are taken into account.

You really don't have a grasp on the amount of coal and shale reserves in the US, do you?
While deliberate waste is never justified, the idea that having us all drive Prius's will save the world is hardly a rational approach.
--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

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From what I understand, Colorado has 10 times the shale oil that all of the middle east has produced. We have it but we don't want to risk loosing "the cure for smoking" while going after it and it would certainly cause more global warming.
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 13:41:29 -0700, Mark & Juanita

Shale is far too expensive to process efficiently. It only makes sense if gas is going for $7-10 a gallon.

A Prius is a damn ugly car, actually. The fact is, a hybrid might help slow the use of gasoline, when gas runs out entirely or gets too expensive, a hybrid isn't going to do any good. The reality is that we need to look for a way to rid ourselves of gasoline altoghether.
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wrote:

Perhaps but we are already hapf way there.

Gasoline is not going to run out. But there needs to be alternatives/competition to bring the price back in line.
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On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 18:55:06 -0600, "Leon"

Gas is a natural resource, there's only so much out there and eventually we won't be able to find any more. That's like saying we'll all be able to keep working with wood when we cut down all the trees.
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wrote:

True but I suspect we have only tapped 10-15% of the supply and that is the "gravy". I doubt our grandkids, grand kids will see an end to oil.
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On Nov 26, 7:46 pm, Brian Henderson

Not to mention that disposing of Prius batteries, after their useful life has passed, is going to be a nightmare. But I do think electrical solutions are the way to go, either through electrolysis to make hydrogen or by charging nano-technology battery- like packs. The source for this magic electrical juice would be a variety of generation devices, with the base-loads carried by a renewed approach to nuclear plants. What-the-hell, the distribution network is in place already. I anticipate some serious progress coming out of France in fusion development.
That whole bio-diesel 'fata morgana' is plain silly.
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Robatoy wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/2u3xyy
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That is amazing. Thanks for that input.
Same, but different, argument about bio fuels. The NET energy is negative in some cases.
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Robatoy wrote:

Not to mention driving up the cost of food in countries dependent on corn...
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Doug Winterburn wrote:

There aren't that many--rice and wheat are the major grains for most of the world--corn as table food as opposed to livestock fodder is largely an American (north and south) phenomenon--poor silly furriners don't know what's good.
But you can also get alcohol from potatoes, wheat, beets, sugar cane, and many other plants, basically anything with enough sugar to support fermentation.
All thinking small though--the high tech approach would be a bioengineered tree that one taps to get diesel directly--one suspects that such a thing could be bioengineered once biotech matures a bit more. But talk about forest fires . . .
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wrote:

Not to mention that fuels with alcohol have a negative effect on the engine. Alcohol attracts water and water does not settle out like it does in normal gasoline. The higher the alcohol content, the more likely it is to get fuel contamination.
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And seeing that we're in 'not-to-mention' mode< G>, alcohol has no lubricity to speak of. The upside of that, is that it won't break down lubricating oil the same way as petroleum based fuels can and will. That fuel-based lubricity, imho, is one of the reasons diesels last as long as they do. Even with higher compression levels and a much heavier load on connecting rod and crankshaft bearings.
I still think that the train of thought of recycling entire cars is what's really screwed up. Like badger.badger pointed out, he's kept his Landrover running. It is a typical example of what proper maintenance will get you if you start with a decent vehicle. It also helps if manufacturers designed vehicles with maintenance in mind other than the dealership jockeys who only learn to replace parts....entire parts. Anybody out there still knows how to fix a fuelpump or alternator?
The energy consumed by melting cars and starting over may look nice as we 'recycle' metal, but iron isn't what we're short of, what is needed to melt the shit that IS in short supply and all wrong.
Two cases very close to me prove every day that proper maintenance can make a car last a long time. My daughter has put close to 400K on her diesel Jetta, another is a friend of mine with 500K. There are million- mile taxis in Stuttgart. So they may burn a little extra fuel, but they aren't getting melted down and rebuilt as a matter of regular course. Recycling engine oil works!
Off to work.
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Leon wrote:

Again, not for the proposed fuel cycles from any reputable analysis I've seen...

Actually, not really. Alcohol works just fine as an engine fuel for engines designed for it. The only real significant problems w/ early passenger cars was in plastics and rubber compounds that weren't designed to be alcohol-resistant and they dissolved.
Gasoline fuel "drying" products are essentially alcohol in which water is soluble so it is picked up in small quantities at a time rather than coming into the fuel system in sufficient "blobs" as to cause icing and/or misses.
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Yes the fuel works fine if delivered clean and uncontaminated. If your tank has water in it as most do, it will mix witht he fuel.

Yes but these products are used in small quantities. Typically 1/8 to 1/4" of a gallon to be introduced to 15 - 20 gallons of fuel. Alcohol based fuels typically have a minimum of 1.5 to 2 gallons of alcohol in 15-20 gallons of fuel.
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Leon wrote:

Current "Dual-fuel" vehicles will run all the way to E85 which is 85% alcohol, not just E10.
The dissolution of any water w/ the fuel is actually "a_good_thing" (TM) as compared to gasoline as icing and "water-misses" will be a thing of the past for them (essentially you have a continuous scavenger).
It does take some care in handling, but that will simply be part of the infrastructure. I foresee no significant issue on that score.
--
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On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:54:42 GMT, "Leon"

That only applies to current engines though. If someone could build a high-temp ceramic engine, just to make up an example, water wouldn't be a problem at all.
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wrote:

Up to a point, since it does not burn and because it does not compress it could cause engine damage from tolerances that are too small. Very small amounts of water in diesel fuel can cause broken pistons and bent connection rods in a diesel engine. I suspect that a very good filtration system that could remove the water from the alcohol would be needed.
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Leon wrote:

Filtration doesn't work for solutions...
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