Do you care where your tools are manufactured?

Page 11 of 16  


Can't you just pee in it??
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Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote in wrote:

You need high purity urea: <http://www.fueltechnv.com/apcUreaReagent.php
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Best regards
Han
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Leon wrote:

Hadn't heard that. I was told the new ultra low sulfer fuel made diesel less polluting than gas. There's certainly no diesel odor or black smoke from the late models I've seen/smelled. I know one Safeway gas station in Washington State had 20% soy bio-diesel. The problem for older pre '07 diesel engines and the low sulfer fuel is supposed to be a lack of lubricity causing wear on the turbo. But then, the local Chevy dealer claims no need for any additive as the oil companies already add it.
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Leon wrote:

Indeed it can. The US based Honda and Toyota factories are growing and successful.
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Correct but US based or not, they are Japanese owned and controlled companies. Additionally building a successful marketable product also includes the engineering and design.
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:20:00 GMT, FrozenNorth

The question is, does that extra quality translate into additional capacity for the tool, does it actually work that much better than an "inferior" tool to make it worth the additional cost. There comes a point where miniscule improvements only come at a much more than miniscule cost. Does it really matter if your table saw top is flat within a billionth of an inch? Is it worth an extra 20% to get it that flat?
Most people would say no.
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The hard part is finding out exactly where that point is on the curve. Yes, I'm willing to pay more for accuracy. For 20% more, it had better be noticeable. At 10%, it had better be useable. At 5%, there is a certain satisfaction knowing the tool is capable when needed, even if never needed to that accuracy. If I can spot the differences at ten paces, it is worth the extra. If I need an electron microscope, to tell the difference, I'll pay something less of a difference.
While tools made in China is the question here, the same set of rules applies to other purchases as well, even made in the USA versus made in the USA. Most everything is engineered to be barely acceptable in the name of lower price and/or more profit. Would I pay more for a Delta made here? I did buy a hose reel for the garden this year and paid $179 if that helps answer your question. Last one I'll ever have to buy and it works great http://www.rapidreel.com/
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wrote:

I think, at a certain point it becomes obvious that a company is trying to bilk you for every red cent they can. Walk thru the tool dept at Sears lately? It's more like Harbor Freight than Home Depot. Yet the prices are still up there. Sears used to mean quality... the best. Now it means the bean counters are going to grind the company's formerly good name into the dirt to make a good profit this quarter.
I don't mind paying for quality. Once in a while I buy cheap, if it passes the grade. But I will pass the junk every time. If there is a quality tool available, I will buy it if I can.
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wrote:

While it was plenty "good enough", especially for the DIY world, I don't think Sears was ever "The Best". In many cases, Sears was simply the only game in town.
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On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:14:12 GMT, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"

I mean "the best" in terms of what was readily available to the average guy walking in off the street. I have never been to a snap-on dealer, or ever purchased one of their tools, because we simply run in different circles. I'm not a professional mechanic. (I'm talking hand tools in this instance, although the same argument could be made for hand held power tools, but probably not for heavy stationary tools... since Sears really didn't try to get into that market.)
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You sure see a lot of old Craftsman table and radial arm saws that still work.. I've got 2 craftsman routers that are older than some folks in this group and you can't kill the damn things... No idea who made them, though.. The older one actually says "Made in USA"..
mac
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Maybe I'm 'late for the party' - I just saw the heading . . . with only one 'comment'.
Mine is not so much about 'Sears', but the original question.
I care quite a bit where my tools come from . . . and am ruefully aware that 'we' don't seem to 'manufacture' ANYTHING in the US anymore. In another sense it's 'Horses for Courses', and I HATE getting 'Ripped Off'.
NO, my 'rant' isn't about 'cheap goods' - it's about those 'Old Line', well-recognized named ones that push their historical 'high quality' image. While the 'image' is portrayed by the Logo, the 'fine print' {usually hidden on the bottom, back of the packaging . . . says 'Made in China'.
If I need a SPECIFIC tool, for a 'one-time' use, it's financially foolish to get one of the 'Lifetime Quality' cost. {Agreed - there are exceptions}. Similarly, if you know a certain tool will not be 'worn out' but 'beat to death' by the environment of it's use - think of it as a 'semi-consumable' . . . like specialized sanding 'disks'. So, Yes - I do buy from Harbor Freight, knowing the stuff is typically 'Made in China', and of lower quality. BUT the cost is equally LOW - especially if I use the SALES.
While I do feel twinges of guilt, I know what is going on - from the start. What REALLY P****S me off is going into either one of the few hardware stores, or the huge 'Emporiums', and looking at the racks of 'High Quality, High Price, 'All-American' Brand's, and seeing that fine print. I can put the two items side-by-side and in many cases they are IDENTICAL !! In most the only MATERIAL difference is in 'final finish / polish' and color. The PRICE difference can be a factor of 10x !!
You can't blame the Chinese for THAT !!
{Rant . . Off}
Regards & Thanks {for the soapbox - again} Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop

think Sears was ever "The Best". In many cases, Sears was simply the only game in town.

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Maybe I'm 'late for the party' - I just saw the heading . . . with only one 'comment'.
Mine is not so much about 'Sears', but the original question.
I care quite a bit where my tools come from . . . and am ruefully aware that 'we' don't seem to 'manufacture' ANYTHING in the US anymore. In another sense it's 'Horses for Courses', and I HATE getting 'Ripped Off'.
NO, my 'rant' isn't about 'cheap goods' - it's about those 'Old Line', well-recognized named ones that push their historical 'high quality' image. While the 'image' is portrayed by the Logo, the 'fine print' {usually hidden on the bottom, back of the packaging . . . says 'Made in China'.
If I need a SPECIFIC tool, for a 'one-time' use, it's financially foolish to get one of the 'Lifetime Quality' cost. {Agreed - there are exceptions}. Similarly, if you know a certain tool will not be 'worn out' but 'beat to death' by the environment of it's use - think of it as a 'semi-consumable' . . . like specialized sanding 'disks'. So, Yes - I do buy from Harbor Freight, knowing the stuff is typically 'Made in China', and of lower quality. BUT the cost is equally LOW - especially if I use the SALES.
While I do feel twinges of guilt, I know what is going on - from the start. What REALLY P****S me off is going into either one of the few hardware stores, or the huge 'Emporiums', and looking at the racks of 'High Quality, High Price, 'All-American' Brand's, and seeing that fine print. I can put the two items side-by-side and in many cases they are IDENTICAL !! In most the only MATERIAL difference is in 'final finish / polish' and color. The PRICE difference can be a factor of 10x !!
You can't blame the Chinese for THAT !!
{Rant . . Off}
Regards & Thanks {for the soapbox - again} Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop

think Sears was ever "The Best". In many cases, Sears was simply the only game in town.

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On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:14:12 GMT, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"

for sure... and had a good guarantee..
But afaik, Sears/Craftsman has never made their own tools... Just takes the best bid like any other business would/wood..
mac
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Bob the Tomato wrote:

Huh? Was in there a couple of days ago, they still have the Bosch jigsaws and the Orion hybrid saws and the polished wrenches and so on that they had a year ago.
Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see Snap-on as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even in that market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you got if you couldn't afford Snap-On.
Their Craftsman Professional power tools have always been decent, seldom the best in the industry but one could count on them to do what they were supposed to do and still can. One example is their jigsaw, which is clearly a relabelled Bosch (and jigsaws don't _come_ better than Bosch) but not the latest and greatest model. I've seen accusations that the Craftsman Professional tools are cheapened versions, but I've never seen anyone post side-by-side photos of their innards that demonstrates this, it's always been vague assertions.
Their bench tools have always been a mixed bag--some have been decent, some crap. Right now their Orion table saws are probably the best table saw they've ever sold under their own brand. Their radial arm saws are mechanically pretty much like they were 30 years ago, they've just changed the trim and added a few bells and whistles over the years. Their new band saws are quite good--they cut corners on features, not on cutting ability.

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But their open end and box wrenches of 40 years ago were better designed than the ones today. You could bet better leverage but they cost more to make.

I've heard accusation that Home Depot tools are cheapened compared to the same DeWalt bough at the local hardware stores also, but I've never seen proof.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

...
I wouldn't have said they were anything different that what S-K or Proto or several others also had available at the same time -- the only difference was the distribution outlet(s).
As for the "then" and "now" for an open-end Craftsman wrench -- I just had a need for a replacement of one that was at least that old -- the new one is identical in form factor--the only difference is the stamping, etc. I don't ken the complaint...
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My Craftsman tool set was bought in 1965. The differences are less, but still there in the open end set, dramatic on the box wrenches. I'd pay more for a 1965 model that a free one from the present set.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

What, specifically, are the differences? Other than the style of print and other cosmetic differences, I see absolutely no other changes from the earliest to the latest in the combination sets/pieces I have. Granted other than this one replacement, there probably isn't one that's less than 10, but this was just last year the jaw on one combo wrench failed (of course, it has some help in that... :) ).
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The wrenches I have are styled like the deep offset, but are not as deep.
Looking on their web page, I found some deep offset wrenches http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00944349000P?vName=Tools&keywordep+offset
In my last half dozen trips to the store they did not have them. Only a "bent" end, like this one http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00943927000P?sbf=Brand&sbv=Craftsman&filter=Wrench+Style%7CBox+end%5EWrench+Sizing%7CStandard&vName=Tools&cName=Hand+Tools%2C+General+Purpose&sName=Wrenches
I see, however, they offer them on the web. Either they are brought back or the local store did not carry them. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00944319000P?sbf=Brand&sbv=Craftsman&filter=Wrench+Style%7CBox+end%5EWrench+Sizing%7CStandard&vName=Tools&cName=Hand+Tools%2C+General+Purpose&sName=Wrenches
I'll have to go back and look. I put off getting a couple of replacements because I did not like what was in the store.
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