Beginners Syndrome

Page 7 of 9  
On 11/26/2015 11:01 AM, Leon wrote:

The Rockler Cabinet makers mechanical pencil comes with a sharpener. The sharpener only sharpens the lead. It has a little hole that the lead just fits in, and a twist or two and the point is needle sharp.
Also, when I said I've read people complain that the point breaks when you drop the pencil, I didn't mean the lead. Of course the lead will break if you drop it on the point, I meant they are saying the screw on nib, or whatever you call it, will break. I haven't dropped mine yet, and will try to make a _point_ not to drop it, for whatever good that will do. I still highly recommend this pencil to any woodworker, particularly in a cabinet making environment.
--
Jack
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If there's any kind of drafting supply house nearby they'll have good ones for the same price or less. Blick Art Supply lists all-metal Koh- I-Noor for 8 bucks. You should be able to pick up a Staedtler at Staples.
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On 11/28/2015 10:46 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

I did numerous searches over the years for cabinet makers pencils and Rockler, amazing enough, seemed to be one of the few hits I got. At your suggestion I looked at the Koh-I-Noor at Blick and looked at Staples and they didn't have anything close that I could see. I think .9mm lead was the thickest I found, Rockler is over 2x that, but sharpens to a needle point.
The Rocker is not only good, with 2mm lead, it looks, and feels heavy duty, and like it belongs in a Cabinet shop. I believe that is exactly the purpose it was designed for, and imo, and about everyone that reviewed it, they nailed it. It is the right tool for the job.
--
Jack
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I'm betting David Rees would vehemently disagree :-/

https://www.youtube.com/embed/VkSmaFAuaH4

(Shot on location at The Woodwright's School, Pittsboro NC)
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To kind of get back to the subject, an apron for that tool buyer made of kevlar of course.
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On 11/29/2015 4:32 PM, Spalted Walt wrote:

LOL, I had forgotten about that video.
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Spalted Walt wrote:

That's a great video for this thread. As a matter of coincidence (perhaps seeded by my recent rediscovery of some old rusty chisels from an auction), I was considering how some (beginner) folks might be well-advised to concentrate on how "metal cuts wood". If one learns how to sharpen and the properties of wood, I think that this will go a long way. For instance, to my mind, a functional shoulder plane could be constructed on the cheap (whereas a set of 3 from LV might run $600..). All this being said, this does not imply that learning how "metal cuts wood" can be learned without some effort...
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Have you read "The Complete Guide to Sharpening" by Leonard Lee? That's basically how he handled things.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

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Puckdropper wrote:

I read it as a library book about 12 years back. I just recently read Chris Pye's book, "Materials,..." which did an excellent job of teaching me more about sharpening (it has more emphasis on carving gouges, I expect). Both books probably have a lot in common, but I was probably paying much more attention to the subtleties this time around--maybe because I own alot more gouges and planes now, and at this point I have a bit more experience. I think everyone who is "afraid" of sharpening should read Lee's book that you recommended.
I found an old Marples morise chisel last night that looks very rusty (it has "thick rust"-lol). I'm going to try to resurrect it with some of that rust-remover liquid and a wire brush, from H.F., and a stack of silicon carbide wet/dry. I'll take a before and after pic for fun, if it works out.
Bill

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On 11/29/2015 10:56 PM, Bill wrote:

For heavy rust, I always used Navel gel. Works a treat. When finished wipe off with water, then lacquer thinner, then coat with Top-Coat type product.
--
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The problem is that once you clean up a badly rusted cutting tool, you're often left with pitting near the cutting edge which, unless lapped completely out, will make it nigh impossible to sharpen the tool to a good edge.
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On 11/30/15 11:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

How deep could any pitting be? Give me a grinder and 30 seconds and the pitting is gone. Then another couple minutes to "scary sharp."
Most chisels that actually get used a lot end up an inch or so shorter than they started from sharpening over and over and over again over their many years of use.
Decades ago, before you could stop at the local big box and buy new set of disposable chisels for 30 bucks, cabinet shops had to use theirs down to the nubs. It was very common to see chisels ranging from a foot long down to a couple inches. They sharpened and sharpened for years and years and used just about every inch.
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-MIKE-

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On Monday, November 30, 2015 at 9:00:29 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:


Preach it, Mike! All true.




I am a sharpening (near) fanatic. All chisels, pocket knives, hunting kniv es, machetes, planes, kitchen knives and my woodturning tools must be nasty sharp. Always. I sharpen my kitchen knives every single time I use them, and my pocket knives (I carry two) usually about once a week or so.
You learn that the time invested on those mirrored edges prized by some are only worth the effort on some cutting instruments, and they are few. I wi ll set aside fine carving tools and certain specialty chisels, but the rest , not a chance.
Most of the carbon chisels are 10XX, usually something like 1084 0r 1087, a nd hardened only to about 55 RC or so... usually less. Makes a good cutter for a short bit, but nothing spectacular. Some are lesser steels, hardene d to even lower points, and worse, incorrectly hardened. This is unlike a g ood plane blade (like a Hock) which are I believe 1095, and IIRC, hardened to about 57-58RC. Harder and better steel, but harder for some to sharpen. The reason they don't harden the steels to higher RC points is because mos t people can't sharpen properly anyway, and people like me that use a cutti ng tools a lot sharpen (and plan to) frequently.
Since 10XX chisels won't hold their edge to my satisfaction, I usually only sharpen to 320gr on my rougher chisels, and 600gr on my finish. Now on a couple of my pocket knives that have VG10, 154CM, and even D2 that are hard ened up to about 60RC, one a bit north, the mirror finish on the edge is wo rth it.
You used to see those chisels ground down like you described because in som e uses a toothier edge yielded better results for cutting. But even a more coarse edge requires sharpening. So off the tradesmen went to their favor ite sharpening device, and the chisels paid the price for poor sharpening t echnique. Like so many pocket knives that have been ground to nothing, the same happens to wood chisels. Until they were stolen, I had a great set o f SEARS chisels that were made in the 70s, and they were my favorites. Har d enough to hold and edge pretty well, but soft enough to sharpen in the fi eld.
I just got a set of Buck Bros. chisels earlier this year at HD, and they ar en't even good enough to call junk. They are worse than awful, completely useless. You can get a razor edge on one, and it is gone in a few cuts. I am trying out some new ones from Amazon as I need a good 3/4" chisel in my kit, always.
Seeing your post made me think of some of the told timers I worked with in the 70s and 80s that had ground off about 2" on some of their chisels and t hey looked like some kind of specialty chisel. I didn't know for some time that they actually had sharpened those bad boys that much.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

That's a good argument in favor of a "sharpening station", which almost no one seems to have room for.... I may have to look a little harder.
Bill
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It's the back of the chisel or blade that becomes pitted. You can't grind those pits out as they're not generally concentrated at the cutting edge, but rather further away from the bevel. You'd have to grind off most of the blade to eliminate the pits.
Yes, pits in the cutting edge itself, or on the bevel side can be ground away. Pits on the back, not so much, and they affect the quality of the cutting edge.
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On 12/01/2015 7:47 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote: ...

Unless they're either humongous or exceedingly numerous, the fractional area lost would be miniscule. If there's one in the current edge area, it'll go away too if the edge is ground back if it can't be honed away.
--


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On 12/1/15 7:47 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Again, I'd like to see this pitting and ask if it would matter at all. We're talking wood chisels, here, not surgeons' scalpels. I imagine all that pitting would do is create a "serrated" edge at those tiny points. I suppose if it were an issue one could end up using those chisels to "hog out" wood and save their finer ones for finishing up for nice, clean edges.
--

-MIKE-

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Indeed. For a plane blade, that's a non-starter.

I'll see if I can get some pictures. I've had plane blades where the back was pitted over more than 50% of the surface. It wasn't possible to grind the cutting edge back beyond the pitting without making the blade too short to seat in the plane.
You'll note my original point was for cutting tools, not just chisels.
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On 12/1/15 12:16 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Absolutely! I can see where it would have a much more negative effect on a plane.
--

-MIKE-

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On Sun, 29 Nov 2015 22:56:33 -0500

best cure for rust is to soak it in water then scrape the rust off with something appropriate
once you get it where you want it dry it well then lightly mineral oil it
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