Actual Woodworking ;~)

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It has been several months since I have built anything large, October last year I think. Anyway my wife wants more storage in her quilting studio and I designed a couple of two piece cabinets that will be painted to match all of her other studio furniture. As usual I am using my front and back face frame methods of building the cabinets with all mortise and floating tenon jointery and dado and grove jointery, and some lap joints on the back frame.
Anyway about 18 floating tenons, and 11 dado/groves. Nothing but wood and glue so far for this particular cabinet. Three to go with two of them being taller with glass doors.
A test dry fit to make sure all of this fits as planned. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/19826609092/in/photostream
Glued and in the clamps. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/19211335554/in/photostream/
Where this will eventually end up. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/19827145132/in/dateposted-public/
The color will be mint green but I use different colors to distinguish different materials so that when I import from Sketchup to Cutlist Plus I don't have to identify the material again for each piece.
Comments?
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On 7/19/2015 2:39 PM, Leon wrote:

Are you sure you are posting this to the proper group? It as nothing to do with politics or the price of gas.
I like the idea of them. We're going to be moving my wife's sewing room and she wants one wall to be display cabinets. I'll have to study your design to see if I can steal your ideas.
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On 7/19/2015 3:25 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

If you use Sketchup I could send you the file.
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On Sunday, July 19, 2015 at 1:39:53 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Time and again, I've paid attention to many of you all's use of floating te nons, though I may not have commented. I don't recall using floating teno ns in the past, but I have lately, and I've seen or understood how well the y perform by you're and others working, explanations and results.
Lately, I tried hand cutting mortises, for loose tenons, in the walnut tres tle tabel top. Did okay, but I'm sure a jig and plunge router would have done a better job, making for the top's edges to be a better aligned (even) , than with my hand job. In essence, I am not totally pleased with my han d cut mortises, despite their being fairly good.
I don't have a plunge router. I suppose a plunge router (and jig) is much more convenient/efficient, than using a standard router, for cutting these mortises. Kinna like a few years ago, I finally bought a biscuit jointer and found it easy to use and using biscuits, to be much more convenient tha n the job of drilling and using dowels.
I suppose it'll be a while before I make any more mortises for floating ten ons, and I may invest in a plunge router, then.
Your project reminds me, again, to think about getting a plunge router. I 'm lacking the skill and experience to use one, also, as readily as I use m y standard router.
As always, Leon, your projects are great, in more ways than one.
Sonny
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com says...

Might want to consider building a router table and putting a router lift in it. Gives you very, very precise control--with a good lift and a good fence you can position to 1/128 of an inch or better. You can DIY the lift if you want to, there's a brief discussion at <http://lumberjocks.com/topics/44093 that lists most of the available lift plans.
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On 7/19/2015 9:27 PM, Sonny wrote:

Thank you Sonny.
I know a lot of people say that you can't blame your tools if your project does not come out right. I say if you don't have the right tools it takes way too long to prove the previous comment.
I can cut many of these type mortises as quickly as cutting a slot for a biscuit and much more accurately with the right machine.
These would be difficult to cut accurately even with a plunge router. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11051049986/in/dateposted-public/
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I think this is why floating tenons is a "modern" technique. If you're working by hand, it's much less effort to cut one mortise and one tenon, than to cut two mortises and a longer tenon piece.
John
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On Monday, July 20, 2015 at 1:40:45 PM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:


Yeah, and in conjunction with what Leon said "that you can't blame your too ls if your project does not come out right" and working "with the right ma chine."
Long explanation, here. Other things involved in my thinking and with this table project (reminded by Leon's mortises and tenons, again), kinna brought all my issues/problems to the fore..... *Issues/problems with this particular table project.
I initially thought my table project was fairly straight forward... and it is, but subsequent (changing) circumstances didn't allow for my execution o f the building processes, as simply as I had envisioned, because of those u nforeseen, unanticipated changes.
I had/have no written plans, only a visual idea of the finished product. Then, I visualized-worked backwards, in my mental planning, as to each task to be done, in order to accomplish the end product. With each individual task, I did measure, calculate, mark, scribe, etc., but the general plans/ schematics were in my head.
1) The table top boards: Rough cut 2" thick, 11'10" long, about 19" wide; air dried for 2 yrs before beginning work; After drying, they were planed to 1 3/8" to 1 1/2" thick. There was some slight variation in the planed thickness, along the length of each board, because of 1) the large size of the boards and ....
2) Despite the boards being stickered, well, when air dried, and, after hav ing been planed and the mating edges jointed, there was still some slight w arping/waviness (not bad) along their lenghts. I had thought the irregul ar surfaces could be corrected, at least to some extent, with the mortise & tenon applications.... the remainder of the correction being to sand the s urfaces, along the mating edges, until even.... And, essentially, this ha s happened. However, there has been some unexpected other "influences" th at has crept into the mix.
Unexpected "influences": 1) My initial "design idea", for the table top, was to keep each board sepa rate from the other, i.e., not glued together, because each board is so lar ge and heavy and each board will expand & contract(humidity/temp). Each ta ble top board weighs about 75lbs, I'm guessing. It would be difficult to move that large of table top (the table disassembled), if the three boards were glued into one piece. So I decided to abandon the glued-up assembly and have the boards assembled separately. This separate assembly plan pr esented another issue, with respect to expansion/contraction movement.... t here would be open "cracks" (separation) along the mating surfaces. This/ these "opening" events will likely have to be corrected by, periodically, m anually closing the mating joints, from time to time. I don't want to hav e to do this "manual closing".
2) The use of loose tenons came into play for the unglued top boards assemb ly..... sounds easy enough, problem solved! My hand cut mortises and teno ns didn't completely solve the problem, as well as I assumed. The boards are still moving, i.e., expanding and contracting. Would better-cut mortis es have helped the problem? Probably, but probably not completely. Shou ld I have invested in a plunge router and jig, as I had thought, back then (months ago)? Back then, I had thought hand cut mortises would have been good enough, so I dismissed the new tool purchase.
For their 11'+ length, I have 7 tenons along each mating edge. Bottom-sid e view of the table, scroll right for second pic. The tenons are 1"W X 3/ 8"thick X 2"L. https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/19875493982/in/photostream
I think my walnut table project is worth the effort to get the right tools for the job and/or have the correct skills to perform the tasks at hand.
Leon's cabinet project, again, made for my re-evaluating the things (tools) I need to seriously consider, when doing some projects. I am discovering that this table project is not as some of my past typical, run-of-the-mill "primitives". I need a better approach, better skills and/or appropriate tools, to accomplish what I want.
There have been a few other things, with this whole project, that has not g one as smoothly as I had envisioned. I blame the large size of the boards for some of the issues.... the slab leg units are still drying, moving/war ping, a bit; the trestle board is still "moving", also. I ask myself, woul d having kiln dried the lumber made for more stable lumber? With this proj ect, I am having to tweak my knowledge(or ignorance?) and skills, an in-pro gress job, in and of itself.
Sonny
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I'm always impressed by folk that can do that sort of thing in their mind. I can't - I have to draw everything out on a piece of paper, front, side, and top views, with dimensions.

Curious how you planed them. Do you have access to a monster power planer, or a wide belt sander?

Not sure I'm actually following this, but could you peg the tenons from below, and keep the joints tight that way? Then all the movement would be at the outer edge of the table.
John
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On Tuesday, July 21, 2015 at 3:25:47 PM UTC-5, John McCoy wrote:

Initially, I had wanted to do the whole build by hand, including planing, n o power tools, at all, but that turned out to be too big of job. I brought the boards to Lafayette Woodworks and they planed them. A nail was hit i n the last board, so the guy stopped planing. That board remained 1/8" t hicker than the other three.... 4 boards were planed and one board didn't p ass the selection committee. In the end, the guy quoted me $25 for the pla ning. I paid him $50.


There was some confusion for me, too, with these doings: Glue the joints or not (and, now, dutchmans are in the mix). No glue meant 3 separate boar ds to contend with. Gluing the boards meant the "one piece" top would be h eavy as heck and difficult to move, when/if need be. I had two options for attaching 1) the table top to the 2) two of two/three piece attaching mecha nism (sliding dovetail assembly), which attached to 3) each leg unit. Thes e combo of options presented for several alternatives, confusing when I tri ed to visualize/compare the workings of each option or option combo, as to which is best.
Leon's comment and, now, your comment reminded me: Well, duh, I don't have to worry about movement along a secured joint line, itself. As you say, it s the edges of the outer boards and the center of the middle board that wil l move. I did realize this some months ago, but for some reason, I had comp letely forgotten about that...... thinking too much on the other options, I guess. Not the only time I've over-thought something and the mind went b lank to the obvious. Must be the beer or highball, I use for mind food, a nd/or the Cajun music influence, when in the shop. There've been times, w alking across the shop, and a good song is playing, I'll do a few two-steps along the way... keeps my blood flowing, but not necessarily my mind.
The tabletop, whether glued or not: I only need one fixed attachment to eac h leg unit. The rest of the width can move along the line of its leg. I don't need the top secured to the legs with any more attachments. The to p's weight will/should keep it secure, otherwise, even with unruly folks cr owded around it. The trestle board-leg units assembly is rock solid, when assembled.
Sonny
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On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 17:22:24 -0700 (PDT)

Surprised he didn't run a metal detector over the material. I have a hand held wand type detector. Once I calibrate it quickly I never miss a nail. Of course there are always those boards I'm sure don't have nails that I don't check that do have a nail in them. Funny part is that it was some old wood from a fence and the nail was like butter. For me knots have been more of a problem than nails. One knot chipped my planer blade.
If I read the dimensions right that's quite a big table. Is it a commision project? It is almost 12 feet long so maybe it's a conference table?
But how did the lumber end up with nails in it?
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On Wednesday, July 22, 2015 at 9:38:54 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:

n

We demolished & salvaged an old cypress house, on the farm, and dozed two n earby walnut trees in the process. I had the log of one tree and several large limbs of the other tree milled. The other tree's trunk was no good for milling, plus it was highly suspect for having metal in it, being so c lose to the house, more so than the better tree. It's very common for tre es, especially near homes, to have metal in them. Along old fence lines, trees likely have wire fencing and nails in them.
Before planing, the boards were thoroughly visibly inspected. Laf. Woodwo rks was as confident as I, that there were no nails in the boards. The na il was barely nicked and they decided it was no big deal, hence charging me only $25. The work was well worth more than that, to me. I was very pl eased with the planing job. *The nail is still in the board, as character decor.
Five projects, so for, with the salvaged lumber and walnut lumber. There a re a number of pics, for each, spread about my Flickr pages. 1) No pics, that I recall, were taken for the two bathroom corner cabinets.
2) Shaving horse, made from limb boards. Limb lumber is usually unstable, stress-loaded, not usually good for building stuff. https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/8474198072/in/photostream
3) Faux mantle place, for the camp https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N 04/15384674712/in/photostream
4) Gun cabinet, for the camp https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/19147854679/in/photostream
5) In-progress trestle dining table, maybe for the camp, not sure yet. http s://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/14314698708/in/photostream
Original log. Some parts of the forks and parts of the rootballs were tr immed and given to a woodturner friend - https://www.flickr.com/photos/4383 6144@N04/8141498429/in/photostream
Old cypress house. The roof's cross pieces, for nailing the wooden shingl es to, were hand split boards, that the gun cabinet was made with. https://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/8141592708/in/photostream
Sonny
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On Wed, 22 Jul 2015 09:32:03 -0700 (PDT)

good point I had not thought about

can charge extra for that nail

nice stuff some of that looks real stout
always have liked salvaged wood products one other concern with salvage is bugs
i have seen them use space heaters and tarps and slow roast for a few days
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On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 6:58:53 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:

Thanks. Long ago, I would build bulk furniture, etc, somewhat to compensate for my lack of skills. I'm getting better about that, but I do like the old(?) rural(?) bulky rustic look, to some extent & for some projects.
Sonny
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On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:04:12 -0700 (PDT)

i like stuff that people care about doing especially if it is not a knock-off or copy of something else
it always shows through
that old saying about don't let perfect get in the way of good enough makes a lot of sense to me
i enjoy looking at museum quality pieces but it is not that fun to obsess over minute details of fit and finish
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On 7/19/2015 9:27 PM, Sonny wrote:

And highly likely to be plenty sufficient to do the job.
Taking a look at xrays of M&T joints in antique furniture will disavow you of the idea most old time woodworking was somehow the epitome of precision when done by hand.
Sure, there are a few bespoke "master works" with precision joinery, but most product of the old time woodworker wouldn't pass the muster of today's imaginary magazine standards, which are driven by advertising dollar, in pursuit of a perfection that rarely ever existed in practice.
--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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On 7/21/2015 8:21 AM, Swingman wrote:

Heck, put an x-ray to my mortises and you will see that one side of the joint, usually the end of a board, has an exact fit Domino mortise and the opposite mating side has an elongated Domino mortise, width wise, to give me a touch of wiggle room during the glue up. Precise fit between the mortise and floating tenon is not at all necessary in this regard. It is helpful however if the distance from the reference surface is dead on so that mating pieces outer surfaces share the same plane. ;~)

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On Tuesday, July 21, 2015 at 8:21:33 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:

te their being fairly good.

Actually, the mortises and tenons fit well, together.... tenons have a nice tight fit into the mortises. The mortise slots' alignments, from board t o board, is perfect. I had expected these "fittings" to fix the subtle/sl ight warp (waviness-misalignment), of the boards surfaces, to be better cor rected. It is the degree of the non-correcting, that I am not totally ple ased with.
And thanks for the vote of confidence, that they are plenty sufficient.
Leon's comment:

, to give me a touch of wiggle room during the glue up.
At one time, I had thought to glue the table top boards together. Their s ize made me rethink that. For smaller boards, gluing is fine, but maybe n ot for these large of boards, planks.
I may reconsider gluing them. Another option, I had considered, was to ins tall 4 or 5 dutchmans along each mating joint, on the underside of the tabl etop. Not sure how well top-surface dutchmans would look, for secondary d ecor function. Wonder if 4 or 5 topside dutchmans would be overkill, look inappropriate for decor? Maybe 3 per joint topside and 2 per joint botto mside. Don't know if I can do justice to this project, with exposed dutchm ans, as well as George Nakashima would do, but the more I think about it, t he more appealing it is. I do pretty good dutchmans, also. There's one o n the underside of one board, securing a check.
Sonny
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On 7/21/2015 9:38 AM, Sonny wrote:

You have heard Swingman and I say this at least once before. ;~) In my very early years I started a project from a few measurements and a picture in my mind. The projects came out well but took for eeeeeeever. Then came the computer and CAD, my first computer was in 1986. I was building serious furniture 8 years before that. I went through probably 5~7 different brands of CAD software including AutoCAD LT. All were an immense help.
Then about 8~9 years ago Swingman and I tried Sketchup one more time. I think both of us had tried earlier versions and removed them but the last time we both saw improvements and have not looked back. Adding simple to use 3D greatly improves the ability to see exactly how a project will look in its finished form. Additionally you literally build your drawing as you would your project in the shop, piece by piece as components. so add dutch-mans in the drawing and see for yourself it they will be too much. ;~)
Another thing I like to do for my customers is draw the room that the piece of furniture will fit into so that they can see the scale to the room shape and size.
The link below is to a pretty complex drawing. This drawing is our home with my garage shop and all of the furniture that I have built, for our home. I have on occasion changed the color of a piece after placing it this model as the original color did not go well. FWIW every thing you see that is placed in the house model can be removed and edited. Basically all of the furniture can be moved, rotated, disassembled and viewed in explicit detail exactly how it was built. In fact if you look at the top floor, my wife's quilting studio, you will see again the model of the cabinet that I am currently building.
Sketchup is a free program and a priceless tool, not to mention a lot of fun.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/19266171184/in/dateposted-public/
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Leon wrote:

I learned the other day, it is still "a lot of fun" if you fall out of practice with it! ;) Maybe part of it was the new version seemed a little bit different that the old. I recall I used to be able to have a bunch of bottons on the *left*, but I couldn't figure out how to get them there. I am using a version I downloaded in 2015.
Bill
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