On Friday, July 24, 2015 at 11:27:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't go as
aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.
My neighbor just bought a 2016 Camry and the front grill will scare senior
citizens and young children. I'd swear there is less wildlife in my
neighborhood since he brought that beast home.
I don't know who their target market is, but there are 55+ YO's and mid-20's
members of my household and none of us like the front end of the Camry.
Yeah, I don't understand this current fad for huge grills
on small cars either. I swear, some of them are big enough
to put the radiator from a semi-truck behind (and all for
a little 1.4l 4-banger).
That fad comes and goes.
The '66 Toronado is still a beautiful car nearly 50 years later. For
1970 they beat it to death with an ugly stick, and a huge new grille was
a big part of the uglification. Can't even blame it on the Feds--the
bumper-uglification law didn't go into effect until 1972.
It wasn't really all that large by the standards of the time. I am
conflicted about that model Camaro. When it first came out it was
stunning, but to my eyes it hasn't aged all that well. Still, 70-73
models looked a lot better than the later ones with the rubber baby
Agreed! Even considering the new retro Camaros none have had the design
appeal as the 70-73 models. Rubber bumpers have always looked like the
loosing result of a compromise.
I think the most vulgar compromise was the first attempts in 74 to replace
the chrome bumpers with the lethargic play dough inspired front ends of the
Malibu. I was absolutely clueless why a single 74 Malibu ever moved off of
the dealers lot. But thinking back there are people that bought the
Citreon and Pontiac Aztec.
FWIW a small engine putting out extreme hp for its size does need lots
of cooling capacity. I remember when 2.3 liter produced 93 hp. It is
not unusual now to see less than 2 liter producing almost 300 hp.
The size of the engine is irrelevant, it's purely dependant on
the amount of power. Give or take a fraction, about 25% of the
chemical energy in the fuel comes out as mechanical energy (i.e.
horsepower), about 50% goes as heat in the exhaust, and about
25% goes as heat to the radiator.
With respect to passenger cars, none of them have a radiator
big enough to handle their peak power output. The designers
depend on the fact that drivers rarely ask for full power for
more than a few seconds (passing on a two lane road, stop light
drag races, etc). Semi trucks, which do need to produce peak
power for extended periods, have vastly larger radiators even
tho their power output isn't much more (360-430hp would be
Yamaha rates my bikes engine at 188hp (from 1 liter). It has
a radiator of 14" x 10". You wouldn't need a much larger
radiator for the typical small car.
That was my point, typically all engines are small these days but
produce up to triple HP so the need to cool is greater.
You left out natural heat radiation of the engine itself not counting
the exhaust. ;~) I'm an ex-GM service manager, actually my real jobs
were upper automotive management.
A few things that I could never quite understand and the factory reps
could not explain.
1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to the
source. How does that work? LOL
2. I'm not sure how electric fuel pumps work to day but in the 70's and
80's many were submerged inside the fuel tank. I disassembled an
electric fuel pump and noticed that the fuel travels through the
electric motor including the brushes. How does the vehicle not blow up
when out of fuel but loaded with gas vapors?
And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer heat
than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans every
vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.
Different set up altogether. The engine is more in the open and heat is
not captured by the engine compartment found on most 4 wheel vehicles.
And especially, the engine is not working nearly as hard as a similar HP
car engine lugging around 3000+ pounds and powering AC, which BTY also
contributes heat through the condenser, and vehicles that still have PS
But yes in ideal conditions the vehicle is, in varying less degrees,
dependent on radiator capacity.
I had an overhearing problem with my 2004.5 Chev Duramax while towing a
10,000 lb trailer up a long grade in the AZ summer. The problem was
exactly what you mention - the heat from the radiator blown by the fan
when it engaged right into the the air intake - a wicked heat loop! The
solution was to upgrade the air intake to the cold air intake from the
2006 model as well as a much larger turbo intake to match the larger
size of the air intake plumbing. The next step would be a vented hood,
but the cold air intake solved the problem.
These trucks can generate some heat - the EGT can run about 1300F when
pulling a grade.
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
What's happening there is that hot air is less dense than cold
air, so with the hot radiator air going into the engine, there
was less mass of air for combustion and thus less power out.
Since you were trying to go up a hill you started pressing the
accellerator pedal harder, putting more fuel to the engine to
make more power to compensate. Too much fuel means the exhaust
gas temps go up. Odds are you were also making smoke at that
1300 sounds very hot to me, but perhaps the little diesels
are different (if nothing else, the pyrometer is probably
closer to the exhaust port in the head).
Well, it's actually not. The source is the combustion chamber
inside the engine. The air blowing back from the radiator is
hitting the outside of the engine, seperated from the source
by the engine block and water jacket. And, in practice of course
most of the air goes under the vehicle anyway.
Simple - no oxygen. As long as the tank is full of gas vapors,
it's not full of air.
Well, we're kind of looking at two different things there. One
is the ability of the radiator to extract heat from the engine.
Passenger car radiators aren't big enough to extract all the
heat produced at full power.
The other is the ability of the radiator to reject heat to the
atmosphere. That is very dependent on the speed of the air
moving thru the radiator, and if there's no air movement it's
close to zero heat rejection. Hence the fan to produce air
movement while the vehicle is stationary.
Not so at all. A sport bike engine is much more enclosed in the
bodywork than an automobile engine. It's different, of course,
if you're talking about a Harley or other bike with no bodywork.
Well, any engine putting out a given horsepower is working just
as hard as any other engine putting out the same horsepower.
That's inherent in the definition of power. But I'll grant
you that at idle, a car engine is working harder than a bike
You know what I am talking about. And if you want to get pin point
specific the source is the fire/ explosion in the cylinder. The air
eventually goes under the vehicle after hitting the engine.
Which is true 99.9999 percent of the time but gas caps get left off, and
air does get in. At some time or another the right moisture and situation
happens. I have to suspect that the motor has a check valve that prevents
reverse flow of fuel/ vapor back through the sock filter and tank.
a. If air is going into the radiator and engine compartment, it
is also going out.
b. The air going through the radiator is still cooler than
the engine (so it is not adding heat to the engine).
No oxygen = no boom.
They have electric fans because it's often cheaper than belt-driven
fans (think transverse engines). As far as running after the engine
is shut off, the engine block (hence water) will continue to heat
after it's shut down (as the pistons cool).
If it weren't for the fans, engines would overheat in any mode. I had
one overheat at when it was -20F and I was cruising at 70MPH, after
the belt broke.
The efficiency of the engines should be similar so heat out ~
mechanical power out. Of course, moving 3000# takes ten times the
energy of 300# (at least on the first order) so will require 1ox the
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