Water softners: Electronic vs. Salt...

[dennis]

Not their site but it shows them in detail

are real softeners and should work fine.

[unopened]

Well, not quite none, but any effect is small and difficult to reliably reproduce.

The following links give some (fairly) measured reading around the topic:

the following entry by 'bimr' in the discussion here:

sheds some light.

"The germ of these descaling ideas is probably due to a phenomenon that is well known to the water treatment profession, but apparently is not known to any extent outside of it, namely that a change in the composition of the water will frequently shell off the old scale right down to the bare metal. Thus, a change in the composition of the raw water, a change in compounds, or the temporary cessation of feeding one, will often shell off old scale.

Two examples will illustrate this. A gas company using a hard well water had scale in its boilers and on its cooling coils. As the chlorides in this well water increased, owing to the gradual working back of seawater, another well was drilled somewhat further back from the shore. This also was a hard water, but when it was first used, the old scale shelled off just about down to the bare metal, both in the boilers and on the cooling coils. Not until the old scale was practically gone, did new scale form.

In a second instance, a power plant was using a water containing hardness and internal treatment with phosphate was used in the boilers. Then the wonder-working gadget was put in on trial and the phosphate feeding discontinued. To the astonishment of nearly everyone, the very thin old scale which had been on the tubes shelled off down to the bare metal. About six weeks later, two tubes failed, and on opening the boilers, it was found that they were badly scaled with a new and very hard scale. The gadget was thrown out; the tubes replaced, the scale was cleaned out by turbining, and the phosphate feeding resumed"

Overall, the most effect is seen in recirculating systems, and no-one has reliably reproduced effects in once-through systems, as in domestic supplies.

As many have pointed out, in a properly working recirculating system (such as boiler+radiators), the same block of water is passing through the system time and time again - it is not contantly renewing itself unless you have a leak, or steam escaping - so once it has dumped it's load of dissolved salts, no more scale is produced - and this once off precipitation does not amount to much.

If you want demonstrable, reproducible, repeatable, scientifically validated water softening, use non-electronic/electrostatic/magnetic means - i.e. salt based softeners. Anything else has very poor and sparse evidence to support it.

Regards,

Sid.

[Doctor Evil]

All very, but mine takes way about 80% of sdscale. It works. Has it sunk in yet?

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[Mike]

No.

That's because at least it's doing something. I have to add lime to my de-acidifier just as regularly - that's life.

[OldBill]

Good for you but has there ever been a patent granted for these? I think not, whereas the ion-exchange process originally had a patent held by Permutit because it is a repeatable, understood, scientifically proven process whereas the weird coils around pipes aren't. I live in a very hard water area. The elec things don't do anything to the reduce the limescale that appears on everything after only a few days usage. The salt based one I've had for 14+ years actually makes the water soft and it can be not only be easily felt when lathering/shampooing but measured i.e. it removes bad stuff from the water. So I recommend a proper water softener. A word of advice to the OP, the cost of the salt will be a major element over the long life of the machine. So get one that meters the salt. In my very hard water area the salt costs are around £4/month for a family of 4 with 2 bathrooms

[Steve Firth]

No, you think it works.

Then again you thought that "cataclean" worked and it doesn't.

[Aidan]

Read and re-read replies by Christian and dennis above. Read replies from Dr. Evil only for their entertainment value. If this is an on-line community, then Dr. Evil fills the role of our village idiot.

There shouldn't be any requirement to treat the water used to fill the sealed UFH system, as stated above. The amount of limescale in the initial fill would be miniscule. There'd be problems, with any heating system, if there were a leak and the system were constantly being topped up.

You'd only need treated (de-ionized) water for the initial fill if there were a requirement to use anti-freeze but this is unlikely and generally inadvisable in the UK.

If they're trying to sell you a combi boiler for the system, then the boiler manufacturers generally recommend the installation of a 'scale prevention device' in hard water areas. If you haven't got such a device, then the domestic hot water heat exchanger will fur up, like kettles do in the area. By 'scale prevention device', they usually mean an ion exchange water softener or a water conditioner, like a Combimate. "Electronic Scale Inhibitors" are probably not acceptable and may invalidate the guarantee for the heat exchanger. Check with the manufacturers of the proposed boiler.

Be warned that combi boilers can prove to be unsatisfactory, especially in the delivery rate of domestic hot water, compared with the traditional stored hot water systems most people are familiar with. It's been discussed unto death here previously, so search the archives. Some combis are OK in some applications, but they're being mis-sold worse than personal pensions were in the 80s.

Dr. Evil will presently recommend 2 combis. Ignore him.

[MIke Deblis]

I'm an electronic engineer by degree, and a scientist by profession, so I'm deeply sceptical about these electronic gizmos which basically seem to be just a 555 oscillator and a couple of coils; about £1.50 worth of bits (if that)...

I have no intention of using one, but wanted to know what the real-world experiences were.

We are using a complex geothermal heating system from Ice Energy, and the UFH should not need softenting - the question is whether it's worth doing it for the house - the missus and daughter might like it, and compared with the expense of the geothermal stuff, it's insignificant...

Mike

[Aidan]

Discussed here recently, so search archives. Someone may be able to supply a link. The general consensus was that they're a con. My sole experience was that they seemed to have some beneficial effect used on electrode boiler steam humidifiers; this was based on hearsay & I remain sceptical. Dr. Evil thinks they work.

Ion exchange water softeners are T&T technology, also discussed here previously. Some who have had them swear by them. They'll use a sack of salt a month, depending on water hardness & consumption. If you can get the salt from a cash&carry type place (Costco, Makro, etc) it's a lot cheaper than the local hardware shop. The drain should go into the foul water drains, not surface water. Don't put softened water into the heating and don't drink it. I'd be wary of using it on any system with oldish copper pipes with lead solder; PEX plastic pipes would be preferable.

I've got a softener. My wife had previous experience of one (in Maidstone area) and hates them. She won't use softened water so it only supplies the washing machine. She is illogical, Captain.

[Andy Dingley]

When I lived in a hard water area, I decided to prove that these things were pointless snake-oil by building one (from an Elektor plan, AFAIR). I was absolutely amazed to find that it _worked_.

However if you report that yours works, then clearly I must have been mistaken.

[Doctor Evil]

They are not. There are many different types of units. Some use FM radio signals, others AM, other different again. The likes of Scalewatcher have a good success rate. I'm sure there are con jobs out there.

I have an Aqua Dial and it works. Even Fernox sell one.

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[Doctor Evil]

An idiot with an electronic unit that WORKS!!!! The only idiots around here are the know-it-alls like you. The amateur know-it-alls who know nothing.

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[Doctor Evil]

MINE WORKS!!!

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[Doctor Evil]

Thank you. It works.

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[Doctor Evil]

Mine works. There is lots of evidence they work.

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[Doctor Evil]

I hope yours never worked. Mine does.

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[Steve Firth]

No it doesn't, in that respect it is just like your brain.

[Steve Firth]

So I could simply play Radio 4 into the pipes to descale them? I know John Humphries can be a bit abrasive but I didn't think he was that efficient.

BTW, when you post here, which village is it that is being deprived of an idiot?

[The Natural Philosopher]

What you spend on salt, you save on soap.

A bar of soap that used to last a couple of weeks now last months..

No furred up taps either wit seals going from lime deposists.

I get through about £1 a week on salt - we are profligate with all water here.

[Doctor Evil]

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