RFD: create unmoderated newsgroup uk.tech.heating

[Nick Booth]

[Andrew Gabriel]

I'm undecided if I support a new group or not -- I'll follow the discussion and then decide. uk.d-i-y is appropriate to most of the heating related posts which appear in it, i.e. there are probably rather few heating related posts there which are not also DIY. I do not follow the alt.* groups which cover heating, so I can't comment if they carry any significant number of non-DIY heating posts. Creating a new group is usually not successful as a mechanism for generating posts that would not otherwise have appeared elsewhere. So is your expectation that the heating released posts in uk.d-i-y would all move across and/or be cross posted to the new group? There are certainly enough to make a group which took them all viable, but it's not clear to me if there's much to be gained by separating them out from uk.d-i-y, nor that there's enough non-DIY heating posts anywhere to sustain a new group alone. However, I'm happy to be shown I'm wrong.

A second point: I'm not sure I see why just "heating" -- I would suggest considering if any new group should cover heating, ventilation, and cooling. These are really inextricably linked, particularly if you are interested in engaging professionals covering commercial work.

[Fentoozler]

With regards discussions about Gas and Oil safety, these subject matters should definitely NOT be associated with DIY of any kind.

With regard to ventilation, yes this is inextricably linked with heating, therefore unnecessary to be mentioned separately If by 'cooling' you mean 'air conditioning', then this is not inextricably linked to the heating trade, a different subject matter and profession entirely, but I imaging the group may receive posts regarding this matter as it is 'relevant'.

[somebody]

In message , Fentoozler writes

FFS ... > *** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

Group creation procedures exist for a reason. Someone

[somebody]

In message , Andrew Gabriel writes

[snip]

FFS ... > *** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

Group creation procedures exist for a reason. Someone

[Geoff Berrow]

Message-ID: from Andrew Gabriel contained the following:

The name is less than ideal, but is there a better single word than 'heating'?

[Andrew Gabriel]

HVAC (Heating, Ventilation, and Cooling), but it's probably a term not well-known outside the trade, which may make it not a good choice for a newsgroup name. I suggest leaving worrying about the name until after there is agreement on the intended topic coverage.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

[John Rumm]

I would disagree. What would you rather have informed or uninformed DIY gas work?

No strong feelings on the subject

Cooling is a much bigger topic than just AC

[John Rumm]

Kindly get back into your pram.

And so they are - also crossposted to uk.d-i-y

[Dave Fawthrop]

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Please note that any discussion on uk.rec.d-i-y will be ignored. That is the system, for which there are good reasons.

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[Andy Hall]

That is completely nonsensical.

If you take the position that all work involving gas and oil should be carried out by professionals who are members of one of the trade organisations (e.g. CORGI), then you would presumably say to anybody asking a question in a group of the type you describe, that they should contact somebody who is a member of such an organisation - yourself for example.

There are two implications of that. One is that it becomes distinctly commercial in nature (i.e. a business referral and advertising arrangement) - that is not the intention of Usenet groups of the type you describe - and secondly that discussions would be pretty short because presumably the professionals who believe that only they should do the work would not want to enter into a discussion of what is involved.

If your real intent is to have a group for discussion between professionals, then it would be better to have that as a moderated mailing list type of arrangement through Yahoo Groups or something like that. It would be pretty much instantaneous and you could have files and pictures etc. - much more suited to a commercial group.

In addition, your comment that gas installation and safety should not be associated with DIY, in the case of the man on the Clapham Omnibus that may well be true. However, there is no basis in law for this position (it requires people to be competent, but only a member of CORGI for work for reward). If you read through reports of the HSE gas safety committees, they acknowledge that DIY gas work does indeed take place and have considered whether to/ways of legislating against it. Quite sensibly, they have realised that there is not, in practice a problem

- i.e. no noticable reports of death or injury - and secondly that there is no practicable way of controlling it anyway. When CORGI was set up, the objective was to attempt to eliminate cowboy fitters and set a standard of training for legitimate ones.

In that respect it has largely succeeded, but obviously there are still cowboys, and despite the propaganda, there is no guarantee that work carried out by a CORGI fitter is beyond reproach. FOr example, we have had cases described in uk.d-i-y where joints in copper pipework have been fluxed but not soldered. This will pass an integrity test initially, but is an obvious safety issue.

In uk.d-i-y there are a number of registered gas fitters and we quite regularly get people coming to ask about aspects of some gas installation or repair work.

These range from something as simple ss changing a flame failure thermocouple in a boiler, through capping off a gas pipe to a full boiler installation.

It is normally very obvious from the first post or within one or two iterations whether the person is competent to do the job they are asking about safely. It is also pointed out what the potential issues are and sources of information.

Generally, the outcome is in one of three directions:

- The person realises that they are not competent to do the work and goes and finds a CORGI fitter

- They go for doing some of the work - e.g. hanging and plumbing a boiler but get a fitter to connect and commission

- They are capable of doing the work, but needed information on a specific detail. It can be provided but if too complex can then decide for a fitter to do the work.

I think that this is a responsible and useful approach.

- People who are just going to go off and do their own work regardless and oblivious will do so anyway and are not likely to read Usenet.

- People who come and ask are being responsible and can be guided accordingly.

Given all of that, it is entirely appropriate, as well as beneficial that such discussion should happen in the context of a DIY newsgroup.

[Christian McArdle]

Why should DIYers not be concerned with safety? That would be ridiculous. There is no law against DIY for gas and oil systems, no matter what the guilds (i.e. CORGI) would like you to think.

Christian.

[John Rumm]

Not surprised, there is no such group...

[Ali Hopkins]

And Darwin will probably obtain. :)

One point of warning on this; from 2007, you will need certificates if they exist and a Home Condition Report to sell your house. Now, the lack of a certificate won't prevent the sale, of course, but it will have financial implications. The buyer may choose to beat you down on price, or you, as the seller will need to get the certification work done. It doesn't stop people doing their own thing, but I do think there should be an awareness of the implications.

Ali

[Charles Lindsey]

"Plumbing"?

[Andy Hall]

The simple solution, in preparation for the sale of a house would be to obtain a suitable inspection and safety certificate (e.g. a Landlord's certificate).

>

[John]

I completely disagree with this sentiment! Safety information SHOULD be disseminated and not kept hidden as a pretence of being a black art known only to the trade. Present legislation does not require professional only participation and it is often (but not always) the case that d-i-y jobs are actually carried out with more care and diligence than some professional ones. I am retired but was until very recently a CORGI registered installer specialising in maintenance so I came across a wide spectrum of quality of work, which I found to be exactly as I mentioned above. Knowing what is involved in operating a gas or oil system safely is far more likely to have a positive effect on the health of the nation than otherwise, especially when one of the less diligent pros has been involved.

Your thinking is blinkered. The fact that a large number of "heating" installers have no ability or knowledge of air-con is not a realistic picture when the control of comfort within a building is being considered. I think the basic problem is one of education since in one job I had the dubious pleasure of working with one supposedly "trained" air-con technician who was blissfully unaware of the concept of vapour pressure or latent heat of vapourisation. How the hell he managed to be assessed as competent to be released onto the public I do not know but he didn't last with the company I was with at the time. He is probably bouncing around the service industry somewhere still.

Having the proposed group as unmoderated may prove to be a mistake. Take a look at the pollution of many threads in uk.d-i-y which start out as serious enquiry but through a small number of posters (one and a number of sock puppets) are hijacked and turn into long sagas of stupidity. Having a moderated group would be one way of blocking out the polluters quickly before this became a problem. Trying to find useful information on a technical issue from uk.d-i-y using Google is nearly impossible nowadays as it throws up pages and pages of "debate" with little relevance to the original thread. The banning of adverts is generally a good thing but small mention of developments as they are relevant to a response is sometimes very useful.

As with Andrew I will wait to see what develops before deciding

John

[Ali Hopkins]

Nope, sorry, won't work. The report has to be a Home Condition Report prepared by a qualified and registered HCI. And the certificates, if they exist, must be by Qualified Persons. Those who carry out Landlord's certification may not necessarily be HCIs.

I can bore you rigid with the draft regulations, if you like.

Ali

[Grimly Curmudgeon]

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember somebody saying something like: