EU to flush your money down your toilet?

[SteveW]

It certainly has. Our eldest son went into reception year in a class of

23 with three spare places. Three years later, our second son was 30th on a list of 54 for the same class. The only change in that time was an influx of East Europeans renting in the area, plus a few from Western Europe. Every day there are dozens of conversations going on between parents waiting in the playground in numerous languages. Most of them are perfectly nice people, but it still does anger those of us that have lived in the area all our lives and struggle to get our kids into the local schools.

Our second son did get in in the end. We had to go through a formal, legal, appeals procedure and two children were given places - there are two limits, 30 per class maximum, plus floor area divided by how much space each pupil requires and the latter is not a strict, legal limit. The whole thing was very stressful and for two and a half months he had no school place at all.

SteveW

[Adrian]

Would it make a difference to your perceptions if the other parents had moved to the area from 50 miles away?

[Java Jive]

I did what anyone else would do. I put suitable terms into a search and clicked on the results.

I stand by my demonstration that his claims were based on prejudice rather than fact.

Additionally, you have conveniently overlooked this paragraph from the actual page that you linked (the same page as you are accusing me of deliberately ignoring, when in fact I just simply didn't ever get to see it) ...

"There is one other important part of the revenue calculations: the UK rebate, which returns to the UK two-thirds of its payments.

This rebate is paid for by the other 26 countries as a fixed amount of their gross national income."

... so, if you are accusing me of cherry-picking, what does that make you?

[SteveW]

There are many things in Europe that I dislike strongly and I would vastly prefer to be out of the EU, however standardisation of requirements for products *is* sensible. If the EU wants to save water by requiring limited volumes of water to be used, it is only sensible that manufacturers here and throughout the world conform to that standard, so that they can sell into all the countries of the EU without restriction and without having to have differing products for each country.

Where the EU should stay out is on how countries run things internally. For instance, how rubbish is disposed of, how many hours people can work, protection of rare species, etc. should be entirely up to the individual country.

If it crosses borders then standardisation is often sensible, if it doesn't then there is no need.

SteveW

[Jethro_uk]

The problem is those things can have an impact outside of national borders.

Do you recall in the 80s, the Scandinavians getting arsey because the acid rain destroying their forests mostly originated from the UK ?

On a very subtley different point, where does "standardisation" stop and "regulation" begin. Once you start to "regulate" you are in the realms of having to join the table to negotiate it, or be lumbered with the results of other peoples deliberations.

[Adrian]

...or finding that your internal regulation makes you uncompetitive internationally against people with lower standards.

[The Natural Philosopher]

It is quite clear. standardisation means you may need to adapt to standards to sell your product somewhere else. Regulation means you cant sell it anywhere unless you do.

The classic example is French provincial 'live' cheeses from unpasteurised milk. The French fought for an exemption to sell these unhealthy and unsafe cheeses (according to EU law) at least to themselves. However it now seems that my local supermarket has an area for 'unpasteurised' cheese and as long as they are separated by a sheet of perspex from pasteurised ones, everything is Elfin safety happy.

[Roger Chapman]

As I said you were looking for support for your (biased) opinion.

Of course Harry is prejudiced but that doesn't alter the fact that he has a valid point about the amount of money the eastern Europeans in particular get out of the EU.

Oh, now you are a mind reader and an unsuccessful one at that.

How about a little bit of that logic you are so keen on. It is nonsensical to draw up a table for net contributions if the rebate is not included.

From the '% of income page':

"There are some variations however. Thanks to its rebate, the UK pays a smaller proportion of its GNI than other countries."

[bert]

You obviously have no experience of tendering and so you do not understand the implications of that for the NHS

People who have lost the argument often resort to abuse.

[Adrian]

I have more than enough experience of tendering to understand the difference between preventing somebody from submitting a tender, and awarding them the contract.

I also have more than enough experience of business to understand the difference between awarding a contract to somebody and them running my business.

If you don't want to be called cretinous, don't post cretinous bollocks. It's that simple. It's not abuse, it's a statement of fact.

Anyway, _are_ you Harry, Bert?

[bert]

Then it doesn't show.

Prove it.

2-0 to me I think

WTF is Harry Bert?

[bert]

That favours the larger manufacturers who can invest in production changes necessary to meet the standard. Supposing yo have s small manufacturer supplying larger toilets to the North West of Scotland. A standard designed to save water in Spain would be irrelevant but could put him out of business. This is just an illustration.

Often sensible but mostly does not need the bureaucratic overhead. The main aim of the EU commission is to produce regulations.

[bert]

Does the EU commission appreciate that subtle separation

I can remember when pasteurised milk was optional. How did we ever survive?

[Adrian]

Your lack of basic reading skills does not help your argument.

[Adrian]

A manufacturer who is incapable of making such basic and straightforward design changes is not a viable business.

[Adrian]

See if you can spot what other changes have happened in the production and supply of milk since then, together with our understanding of microbiology and food hygiene.

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 01/11/13 19:56, bert wrote: In message , SteveW writes

And the main aim of the EU is to create a superstate that pulls power from nations states into Brussels. Which would be fine if they were actually capable of ruling wisely, and weren't a corrupt bent bunch of ex-commies hand in glove with European big business bent on European domination at any price..

..since they are not, I want out....

[The Natural Philosopher]

Well I will give you a better example.

A disability wheel chair. In fact two, One British well made and cheap. One German. More expensive and no better.

German company approaches EU and a 'directive' is issued saying that any disability chair MUST be able to withstand correct operation in a high gauss magnetic field. Such as you MIGHT just find in a hospital cat scanner room, or scrapyard sorting metal. British design uses reliable reed switches and fails test. German design uses expensive unreliable electronic switches and passes. British manufacturer goes down. German manufacturer raises prices 50%.

[bert]

[bert]

Why?