electricians report

[RichGK]

Hi,

We are currently selling our house and an electricians report has recommended that as our consumer unit uses fuses rather than MCBs it should be replaced (the whole consumer unit that is).

The CU was replaced about 15 years ago I think, I say think as we have been in the house for 5 years and it was fully re-wired 10 years previous to that. Looking at an information leaflet to identify which unit we have shows that we have the next oldest model to the very latest type. (sorry haven't got info to hand).

Can we simply replace the 5 or so fuses that are BS1361 types and fit MCBs instead? I know that the unit can take MCBs as the shower ring ciruit breaker is allready of that type.

Would this then pass a subsequent electricians test? Or is there something else to consider with a CU that is 15 years old or so?

Thanks Rich.

[Chris Bacon]

Isn't that a job for the buyer? Do we now need "sellers packs"?

[meow2222]

this is complete nonsense. Cartridge fuses and rewirable fuses comply with the latest regs, and may stil be installed today.

Either someone has misunderstood significantly, or your spark is having a sanity crisis.

Maybe you would quote the report verbatim, let us know who prepared it, and what their quals are.

NT

[RichGK]

Thanks.

I'll dig out the report and post up the details tonight.

[RichGK]

Well this is a report on behalf of the buyers upon request from their lenders, and as such there are recommendations to the sum of £850 which of course the buyers want us to reduce from the price of our property.

My argument to them is that some of the recommendations are only that and not essential work. So we are saying that we won't reduce the price.

[RichGK]

However (soz for double post boss walked in) as a fuse went today I thought i'd replace it with a MCB, and then it occured to me that I could replace them all for 20 quid and it could be something to knock of their list :)

[EricP]

You are being conned by the latest Try For a Reduction scam. If they want the place, let them pay for the damn CU, it's fine as it is.

[Mark Carver]

Is this a new 'legal' requirement as a result of 'Part P' ?

[Andy Dingley]

This can be viewed as either touting for business, or possibly as a wise piece of marketing to avoid sarky buyers whining. You certainly don't _need_ to do it.

As to swapping the MCBs, then (depending on the maker) it could be entirely practical and quite simple work. Personally I'd rather have a split-load CU with an RCD on one side and fuses than I'd have MCBs but no RCD - so think about the RCD issue too. Swapping the entire CU might still be the cheapest and simplest way of doing it though - it's only a couple of extra cables (albeit harder to isolate) compared to swapping MCBs inside an existing case.

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:25:03 GMT someone who may be "RichGK" wrote this:-

Assuming they are BS1361 fuses, as stated later, if that is the stated reason then the "electrician's" "report" is probably not worth the paper it is printed on.

Are they really BS1361 fuses (the bottom four rows on

or BS3036 rewirable fuses?

It depends. If you need to ask then you probably don't have the skill to undertake the necessary study of the circuits and external supply to decide one way or the other and to decide what sort of MCBs to install.

[Jim Gregory]

This alleged proposal was amusing to read - MCBs are considered as progress over cartridge or rewireable fuseholders, but either gives protection in its own way. And your CU has already made inroads by ably housing a MCB. I believe the shower should be protected by an fast-acting RCD too. Try to upgrade the old fuse holders with MCBs of the same manufacture, though the current ratings will be higher. Nowhere near £850!!! Don't forget to obtain independent lighting and to remove mains supply fuse while working inside Distribution Boxes.

[RichGK]

Well I have one with me which is LA 5A for the downstairs lights.

Ah well this *is* why I was asking after all, I was wondering if it was a simple job to replace with the MCB type switches. So you are suggesting that to do even a small job like this would involve a qualified electrician?

I'd just like to add that I'm pretty intelligent and remember to do things like switching off the main circuit breaker etc, when I'm planning to jam my highly conductive tools into high voltage areas :)

[Christian McArdle]

BS1361 cartridge fuses are as safe as MCBs. In some situations, such as an installation in a city centre, they are probably safer. MCBs are a convenience, not a safety benefit.

Christian.

[Chris Bacon]

I see, thanks - I'm not sure that I like prospective buyers knocking the price down like this - last time I sold a house, I told the Estate Agent "that is the price, please inform buyers that the cost of repairs is not going to be taken into account, it's priced accordingly". No trouble from buyers!

[RichGK]

Yeah I hear you! I wished that I'd spent a LONG time researching all the tricks etc that people can get up to before I put the house on the market. This is the 3rd time I've moved and there are 'gotchas' everytime :)

We have pretty much reached this point ourselves, it's now a case of "look, this is the situation, we've been pretty good so far but either you want it or not, so sort it out or FO!"

[Bob Mannix]

Buyers can't "knock the price down" - they can revise their offer to a lower one and you can say yes or no, that's all. They will do this (of course) because they are strapped for cash and you will make your decision on how good you think the original offer was and how likely you are to get a buyer elsewhere. It may save time, of course, if it is made plain up front there will be no reductions, but they may just pull out and that would waste time anyway.

I got £2k knocked off a £65k house (it was a while ago!) because the survey said the roof was about to slide off - I dropped my offer and the seller accepted as they were in a hurry - they didn't have to. (It cost £2018 to re-roof so it was a lucky guess!). I don't know whether we would have pulled out if they had refused to accept the lower offer but that would have been our problem.

I was also gazumped on a house, having offered the asking price and had it accepted with no caveats (only found out when I rang the estate agents to find out how things were going). Slightly more moral outrage there! Wouldn't have minded if they had *said* they would see if there were higher offers :o(

[chris French]

In message , RichGK writes

so you would try to get a price reduction on your next purchase if you thought you could?

I think it's probably a case of market conditions, the market is pretty slow in a lot of areas for a lot of properties at the moment, so buyers are more tempted to push for a reduction.

It's just a negotiating tactic - the seller decides whether or not to go for depending on their situation.

[Andy Wade]

That's a common myth. There is no general requirement for an electric shower to be RCD protected. Sometimes it is necessary to fit an RCD because a sufficiently low earth fault loop impedance can't be obtained

- e.g. in a TT-earthed installation.

What *is* important when assessing bathroom electrical safety is to ensure that proper supplementary equipotential bonding ('earth bonding') is in place.

You can get plug-in MCBs that will replace the BS 1361 cartridge fuses or BS 3035 rewireable fuses in Wylex CUs - see:

though the current ratings will be higher.

No - in Europe use the same ratings. You may be thinking of US practice where (I believe) that circuit breaker ratings are differently defined.

[David Hansen]

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:43:45 GMT someone who may be "RichGK" wrote this:-

It is a simple job. Depending on the design of the consumer unit it is just a matter of plugging in the new modules, or removing the old fuse carriers from the rails and replacing them with the new MCBs. If any tools are needed this will usually just be a suitable screwdriver. However, that is not the point. Before undertaking the job one needs to consider the effect on the circuits that the protective device is protecting.

For example, protective devices should be able to break the current that will flow if there is a short. If they cannot break that current then they don't protect the circuit and may burst into flames themselves as the current arcs across them. The current that may flow in a short surprises many people, up to 16,000A in houses. A value above say 10,000A is generally seen in cities, in rural areas it will generally be less. However, the only way to be sure is to measure it. Once one knows what that current is then one can select MCBs with the appropriate breaking capacity. There is a backstop if the breaking capacity of the MCBs is not adequate, the "electricity board" fuse, but it is not something I would rely on.

Sorry if this isn't the answer you want to hear, but anyone who tells you what it seems you want to hear is at best asking you to take risks. These risks could include being sued if the house burns down after you have sold it.

[Grumpy owd man]

Nay! Nay! and thrice Nay! unless of course you are in the only area in this country where the removal of the main [DNO] Fuse is not illegal!! Even for a fully qualified spark in the NIC or ECA it is not allowed. I even had to be 'audited' on pulling a fuse from a lighting column! by a bloke who is NOT a spark, bizarre. We are even meant to 'cut & block' tails on-supply...[as if] So for a DIYer to remove the DNO fuse is a no-goer, surely?