Building Regulatiosn Part P

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Doe anyone have any details on how the new Part P of the building regulations will affect diy electrical work?
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Yes. It will mean you have to pay 300 quid in tax every time you do any wiring.
Christian.
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DIY Work The guidance says that for DIY work one way of showing compliance would be to follow the IEE guidance or guidance in DIY manuals and where prudent have the work inspected and tested. It is to be presumed that persons carrying out other than minor work, would be required to notify the Local Authority before commencement and notify them on completion and arrange with them to have it inspected and tested by the Local Authorities inspector.
From: http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/PartP.pdf
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:50:52 +0000, Dennis Wynes wrote:

"Yeah right". I believe is the expression.
What I can envisage happening is as follows:
1) A slightly bigger segement of the market probably including most small commercial and the very top end of domestic will only employ registered electricians. (Already all public & major commercial do this).
2) Almost no one will submit a building notice
3) A proportion of the more repsonsible full time pros will get qualified/registered. Just how many will depend on the fees, costs and what the public choose.
4) Initally a good proportion of repsonsible possibly part time professional electricians will avoid the extra costs of registration and will see how things go. (i.e. Levels and mechanisms of enforcement, public perceptions etc.)
5) The cowboys won't even notice the changes in the regs let alone follow them.
6) The general public will in the most part be totally unaware of the changes.
7) The charges for registered electricians will increase at least initally to compensate for their incresed demand.
8) Good DIY will happen.
9) Bad DIY will happen.
I think it unlikely that the government will spend on the public awareness campaign that might make the above different.
Why does CORGI registration work? Firstly the residual public perception (RAPIDLY changing) is that British Gas are the only ones you should let loose on gas. The message that has taken a long while to get out is any registered fitter is OK (actually that's a "should be"). In fact the idea thst there are differing areas or work within gas fitting would not even score on the scale of public perception. It works for gas fitting because the public already are (mostly) looking for professionals. Most people who would tackle many DIY tasks baulk at gas fitting. As we know there is still an unregistered segment with a steady trickle of prosecutions.
Why does it work for FENSA? I guess because there are relatively few companies who do window replacement. Most windows are installed by builders or replaced by specialist companies. The DIY window replacment market is tiny (you have to go to a BIG B&Q before you can buy windows). Doubtless there are unregistered companies but we don't see a string of high profile prosections by the LAs against them.
Why I think it won't work for NICEIC and IOP There are hundreds of thousands who do minor professional plumbing and electrical work. There are millions who do DIY on water and electricity. That's a huge ingrained culture. Banning diy (with or without a building notice loophole) is just plain nonsense.
Remember when recording a film onto a video and then showing it to your friends was technically illegal? How many people remove the CH filling loop after topping up the CH? The above are examples of unenforcable laws.
The worst case I can envisage is that conveyancing solicitors will require an Inspection and Test certificate for the electrics which has been performed by a registered sparky. You'll probably have to pay a few hundred quid to get one and the same again to fix 'minor' faults but it will all be part of moving house.
OK if your house burns down you'll be in big trouble - but you would be anyway 'cos you're house has burnt down.
I am told that in parts of central (not LATIN) continental Europe the culture is different and most people would not even think about touching the electrics themselves. But, this is the UK and I strongly suspect that a culture is harder to modify that what can be done by mere laws alone.
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The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
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Dennis Wynes wrote:

Can someone clarify something for me? In the above doc, under Notices to The Local Authority it lists two circumstances where notification is not required. Should those be interpreted as i) AND ii), or i) OR ii)? If the latter then, under ii), a DIYer can do everything listed in Table 1 without notifying the LA or getting the work checked by a "competent person", is that correct?

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"Parish" wrote in message

That's meant as an "or".

Yes, that's correct. (To the extent that these are only proposals and the legislation hasn't been published yet.) There was also mention, in one of the documents on the ODPM website, that _all_ work done by non-competent persons in kitchens would be notifiable (in view of the amount of inept electrical work done by kitchen fitters).
It's all very silly. Minor works exemptions will encourage over-extending of existing circuits in situations where it would be safer to provide a new circuit. Also look at Item 6 & note 2: "where can I get a 100yd. reel of 7/0.029 TRS to do the like-for-like replacement encouraged by this particular exemption?"
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Andy Wade wrote:

Thanks for the clarification. It was items 4 & 5 about bonding, especially testing it, that prompted my question. I would have thought (based, in part, on discussions in this group) that this would be something that required an expert to get right since, if you get it wrong, you may only realize your mistake in the last few milli-seconds of life!
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:43:49 -0000, a particular chimpanzee named
the keyboard and produced:

It hasn't been published yet. Once it is, it will apply about 3 to 6 months later.
The ODPM is edging towards a lot more self-certification. If the work is done DIY, then either a Building Notice will need to be submitted to the council, or a certificate from a suitably qualified person or trade body will be required to state that the work complies with the requirements.

It's likely that the fees will be in line with the replacement window charge of between 50-100.
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wrote:

Not according to the manager at the local council office who will be responsible for implementing the new regs when they do come about.
It will depend on what needs to be tested. If it's simple then the charge may be in the region of 70. However if it is a full system test (for example after changing a consumer unit or adding new ring mains) then you could be looking at 300+.
Make no mistake, this is going to decimate the industry big time. And as usually happens when governments get tough the black economy will flourish - the householder will have a choice along the lines of "well mate, we can do this by the book for 300, or alternatively if you pay me in cash the job will be done just as competently for 50 - which option would you prefer?".
For once in my life, and the first time ever, I am contemplating the option of moving into the black economy because of part P regs which threaten to take away a portion of my livelihood. That's not something I feel very strongly about doing because I am very much a law abider and always have been, but if it comes down to being able to put food on the table for my family I'll do what I have to do, and sod the government.
PoP
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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:24:55 +0000, PoP wrote:

I too am wainting to see just how well enforced Part P will be. I may have to shell out for the full NICEIC or go for a Central Heating controls only mini registration or just join everyone else as a 'grey' electrician.
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Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
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Sod the government anyway :-)

.andy
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wrote:

I tend to treat people with the same level of respect they treat me, so I imagine that's not going to be hard for me to do ;)
PoP
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And from the BCO's point of view....
I went to a NIEC (not sure that's entirely correct) seminar for BCO's two weeks ago on Part P. In the main, like FENSA, it's hoped it will be a collection of certificates issued by competant.approved persons/companies, but the nightmare for BCO like me is that its DIY'ers work that we will have to inspect, when many BCO's like me have wiring up a plug as the limit of our electrical knowlege.
And it will cost you 300 or so..... So get your DIY work done before it's implemented!
RT

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River Tramp wrote:

Well, that really inspires confidence that the safety of our homes (which is what this is all about) is going to improve. Surely the LAs employing some qualified electricians/electrical engineers would be the way to go?

IOW, like Christian said, another stealth tax.
Parish
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Actually it isn't a stealth tax, strictly speaking. The main reason for part P being introduced is that the government want all practicing tradespeople to belong to an organisation. In turn that means that the Inland Revenue can get hold of a handy list of tradespeople through the back door, who they can then target and pester for paying more tax.
But as I've suggested elsewhere, what will happen is that the problem the government are trying to solve will in fact be worsened by virtue of the fact that once-honest tradespeople will say "what the hell", and become part of the black economy instead.
Sir John Harvey Jones once said something rather important which went along the lines of "frequently legislation is introduced by government to combat a specific problem, and the nett result of that legislation is to make the problem much worse".
PoP
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When I ran a one-man company, I actually had a tax inspector say, to my face, that she didn't trust anyone who had such an arrangement.
The Government wants everyone to work for a large organisation whose payroll department can be bullied.
[5 lines snipped]

And he didn't have the original idea. IIRC it was one of the US presidents who said that legislation frequently has the opposite effect to that desired.
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I think that is too cynical. There is a real problem with people who claim to be electricians not knowing what they are doing - Triton, on their website, note showers being wired in with 2.5mm cable as being one of the most common faults - and I think that this is a response to demands that something should be done. It would have made far more sense to insist on a full test report when a property is sold; if your current installation is unsafe and you don't modify it Part P does nothing. The real cowboys will ignore it, and those most likely to be affected are the competent honest people in the middle.
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I know of someone who moved an electric shower and extended the cabling with chocolate block and 1mm flex. At the time they thought it was odd that: (a) the wires were different sizes (b) one had strands but the other was solid (c) the colours were different but at no time did they consider looking up whether this was correct or asking someone who might know what should be done. The cable failed when the next person took a shower. When they opened it up they found that the chocolate block hat mostly melted and there was very little of the flex left. They then called an electrician.
I'm not sure whether Part P will make any difference at all to situations like this, unless there is a big campaign to raise awareness that electrical work comes under building regulations. How many people on the street know that you need building regs if you replace a window?
Just my 2 pence, Al
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On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:46:49 +0000, Al Reynolds wrote:

You do?
Sounds like more b***ox to me.
Must remember to forget I read that just now ;->
On an aside, are the governemnet deliberately trying to bring building regs into such a laughable state of disrepute that eventually everyone ignores *all* the regs? This seems a worrying state of affairs.
I always thought that building regs were like IEE regs - eminently sensible and applied to doing things that if they went wrong, could have dire consequences (like house falling on head after pulling out load bearing wall).
Now we're getting into the situation where I'm going to be running a checklist on a major project (DIY - I don't do this stuff for a living) along the likes of:
1) Electrics - consult IEE regs, sod telling the council; 2) New window - can I screw it in so it won't fall out? Then sod council 3) Drywalling - are there fire escape considerations - get opinion 3) Structural alteration - hmm, I'll do that by the book...
What a stupid state of affairs.
Timbo
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Isn't Part Q up next, Broadband Access?
How that is going to help health and safety, or energy conservation, I'm not sure.
RT

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