Building Regulatiosn Part P

[MG]

Doe anyone have any details on how the new Part P of the building regulations will affect diy electrical work?

[Christian McArdle]

Yes. It will mean you have to pay 300 quid in tax every time you do any wiring.

Christian.

[Dennis Wynes]

DIY Work The guidance says that for DIY work one way of showing compliance would be to follow the IEE guidance or guidance in DIY manuals and where prudent have the work inspected and tested. It is to be presumed that persons carrying out other than minor work, would be required to notify the Local Authority before commencement and notify them on completion and arrange with them to have it inspected and tested by the Local Authorities inspector.

From:

[Hugo Nebula]

It hasn't been published yet. Once it is, it will apply about 3 to 6 months later.

The ODPM is edging towards a lot more self-certification. If the work is done DIY, then either a Building Notice will need to be submitted to the council, or a certificate from a suitably qualified person or trade body will be required to state that the work complies with the requirements.

It's likely that the fees will be in line with the replacement window charge of between £50-100.

[River Tramp]

And from the BCO's point of view....

I went to a NIEC (not sure that's entirely correct) seminar for BCO's two weeks ago on Part P. In the main, like FENSA, it's hoped it will be a collection of certificates issued by competant.approved persons/companies, but the nightmare for BCO like me is that its DIY'ers work that we will have to inspect, when many BCO's like me have wiring up a plug as the limit of our electrical knowlege.

And it will cost you £300 or so..... So get your DIY work done before it's implemented!

RT

[Tim S]

Personally, I'm inclined not to give a monkey's - I will just follow the IEEE regulations and do what I've always done. This IMO is Blairite regulation gone mad and they can stuff it.

Now that's a personal opinion and I'm not recommending anyone else do so without careful thought.

AFAICS the only time it's likely to be an issue is when selling. If selling, I suppose it's possible to get an inspection done then? Anyone know different? Assuming so, if buyers markey, I'll pay, if seller's market, buyer can blinkin pay if they want the certs that badly.

I really can't see how they are going to enforce this at all.

Up the revolution!

Timbo

[stefek.zaba]

That'll do fine for designing Ethernet gear; for domestic wiring you may prefer the IEE regs ;-)

Yes, buying and selling time is the main time any inspections will get done in practice. And as you suggest, there's a makework scheme by which the buyer's solicitor/conveyancer sends a standard set of queries including sthg like "Can the vendor confirm that all electrical work has been carried out under the relevant Building Regulations" and the seller's solicitor replies (or at least mine will) "the vendor is not aware of any material departures fron the relevant Building Regulations, but the buyer must satisfy themselves at their own expense as to the state of the electrical installation". Then both solicitors can put another few minutes' chargeable work on their bills (even though this is all standard boilerplate) and they're both happy.

By appealing to the venality of the less repatable members of the trade, I'm afraid. "Ooh, what's that missus? Your lights keep going out? No problem, we'll have someone round in the morning". Cue sunrise. Plausible rogue arrives, sucks teeth meaningfully, "I think I've found the fault" (pushes button back on MCB) "but you're really going to need a full inspection. If it turns out you need a full rewire, we'll refund the cost of the inspection. Trust us, we're honest tradesmen, and here's a sistificate that says so." (Not to malign all sparkies: there are plenty who are anything but ripoff merchants; but the 'self-certification' route increases the temptation to talk up the intrinsic difficulty & danger of the simplest electrical job...)

Stefek

[Parish]

Well, that really inspires confidence that the safety of our homes (which is what this is all about) is going to improve. Surely the LAs employing some qualified electricians/electrical engineers would be the way to go?

IOW, like Christian said, another stealth tax.

Parish

[PoP]

Not according to the manager at the local council office who will be responsible for implementing the new regs when they do come about.

It will depend on what needs to be tested. If it's simple then the charge may be in the region of £70. However if it is a full system test (for example after changing a consumer unit or adding new ring mains) then you could be looking at £300+.

Make no mistake, this is going to decimate the industry big time. And as usually happens when governments get tough the black economy will flourish - the householder will have a choice along the lines of "well mate, we can do this by the book for £300, or alternatively if you pay me in cash the job will be done just as competently for £50 - which option would you prefer?".

For once in my life, and the first time ever, I am contemplating the option of moving into the black economy because of part P regs which threaten to take away a portion of my livelihood. That's not something I feel very strongly about doing because I am very much a law abider and always have been, but if it comes down to being able to put food on the table for my family I'll do what I have to do, and sod the government.

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't guaranteed to reach me.

[Tim S]

Oops - butterfingers (can I blame the laptop's keyboard?)

Good, very very good. I'm going to write that down :->>

Righty ho - business as usual for me then...

Timbo

[PoP]

Actually it isn't a stealth tax, strictly speaking. The main reason for part P being introduced is that the government want all practicing tradespeople to belong to an organisation. In turn that means that the Inland Revenue can get hold of a handy list of tradespeople through the back door, who they can then target and pester for paying more tax.

But as I've suggested elsewhere, what will happen is that the problem the government are trying to solve will in fact be worsened by virtue of the fact that once-honest tradespeople will say "what the hell", and become part of the black economy instead.

Sir John Harvey Jones once said something rather important which went along the lines of "frequently legislation is introduced by government to combat a specific problem, and the nett result of that legislation is to make the problem much worse".

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't guaranteed to reach me.

[Ed Sirett]

I too am wainting to see just how well enforced Part P will be. I may have to shell out for the full NICEIC or go for a Central Heating controls only mini registration or just join everyone else as a 'grey' electrician.

[Ed Sirett]

What I can envisage happening is as follows:

1) A slightly bigger segement of the market probably including most small commercial and the very top end of domestic will only employ registered electricians. (Already all public & major commercial do this). 2) Almost no one will submit a building notice 3) A proportion of the more repsonsible full time pros will get qualified/registered. Just how many will depend on the fees, costs and what the public choose. 4) Initally a good proportion of repsonsible possibly part time professional electricians will avoid the extra costs of registration and will see how things go. (i.e. Levels and mechanisms of enforcement, public perceptions etc.) 5) The cowboys won't even notice the changes in the regs let alone follow them. 6) The general public will in the most part be totally unaware of the changes. 7) The charges for registered electricians will increase at least initally to compensate for their incresed demand. 8) Good DIY will happen. 9) Bad DIY will happen.

I think it unlikely that the government will spend on the public awareness campaign that might make the above different.

Why does CORGI registration work? Firstly the residual public perception (RAPIDLY changing) is that British Gas are the only ones you should let loose on gas. The message that has taken a long while to get out is any registered fitter is OK (actually that's a "should be"). In fact the idea thst there are differing areas or work within gas fitting would not even score on the scale of public perception. It works for gas fitting because the public already are (mostly) looking for professionals. Most people who would tackle many DIY tasks baulk at gas fitting. As we know there is still an unregistered segment with a steady trickle of prosecutions.

Why does it work for FENSA? I guess because there are relatively few companies who do window replacement. Most windows are installed by builders or replaced by specialist companies. The DIY window replacment market is tiny (you have to go to a BIG B&Q before you can buy windows). Doubtless there are unregistered companies but we don't see a string of high profile prosections by the LAs against them.

Why I think it won't work for NICEIC and IOP There are hundreds of thousands who do minor professional plumbing and electrical work. There are millions who do DIY on water and electricity. That's a huge ingrained culture. Banning diy (with or without a building notice loophole) is just plain nonsense.

Remember when recording a film onto a video and then showing it to your friends was technically illegal? How many people remove the CH filling loop after topping up the CH? The above are examples of unenforcable laws.

The worst case I can envisage is that conveyancing solicitors will require an Inspection and Test certificate for the electrics which has been performed by a registered sparky. You'll probably have to pay a few hundred quid to get one and the same again to fix 'minor' faults but it will all be part of moving house.

OK if your house burns down you'll be in big trouble - but you would be anyway 'cos you're house has burnt down.

I am told that in parts of central (not LATIN) continental Europe the culture is different and most people would not even think about touching the electrics themselves. But, this is the UK and I strongly suspect that a culture is harder to modify that what can be done by mere laws alone.

[Andy Hall]

Sod the government anyway :-)

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

[Parish]

The Local Authority it lists two circumstances where notification is not required. Should those be interpreted as i) AND ii), or i) OR ii)? If the latter then, under ii), a DIYer can do everything listed in Table 1 without notifying the LA or getting the work checked by a "competent person", is that correct?

[PoP]

I tend to treat people with the same level of respect they treat me, so I imagine that's not going to be hard for me to do ;)

PoP

Sending email to my published email address isn't guaranteed to reach me.

[Dean]

Well, if it was me I'd be inclined to say that no electrical work has been done on the property since this regulation came into force, so no, there is no certificate.

This is what will happen in the vast majority of cases. If the house burns down because of dodgy wiring, the insurance will still pay because officially the wiring was in place before the certification regulation etc. Some insurers will solicit reports about the wiring condition (ie was it newer than the regulation start date), but I doubt it because the vast majority of fires WILL show the wiring was old, so they will have to pay out anyway. My guess is that only if they suspect the wiring was 'improved' but not checked, will they investigate further, just like they do with burglary claims where the claimant inflates the claim amount (ie, adding in enough extra to but a new carpet etc). Most people will get away with it, a very few won't.

In short its an undenforcable regulation, but let's not forget, the point is not to raises standards in the industry (if anything it will lower them as the grey market gets bigger), but to raise revenue for Mr Brown. It's a tax, and a very regressive one that will be passed on to those who buy 'official' electrical services, ie the elderly, single mothers and anyone else who has a fear of electricity. The rest of us who can read books with titles like "Home Electrics for Dummies" will not be affected one little bit.

Just my twopenn'orth.

Dean.

[Huge]

When I ran a one-man company, I actually had a tax inspector say, to my face, that she didn't trust anyone who had such an arrangement.

The Government wants everyone to work for a large organisation whose payroll department can be bullied.

[5 lines snipped]

And he didn't have the original idea. IIRC it was one of the US presidents who said that legislation frequently has the opposite effect to that desired.

[Huge]

Would Sir care for a beer?

[Tony Bryer]

I think that is too cynical. There is a real problem with people who claim to be electricians not knowing what they are doing - Triton, on their website, note showers being wired in with 2.5mm cable as being one of the most common faults - and I think that this is a response to demands that something should be done. It would have made far more sense to insist on a full test report when a property is sold; if your current installation is unsafe and you don't modify it Part P does nothing. The real cowboys will ignore it, and those most likely to be affected are the competent honest people in the middle.