Asbestos roof lining material (not corraguted)

[bigcat]

Im not going to argue with you. I gave you the report link, job done.

I read it all, theres no need for nonsense. Last says yours Ive got better things to do.

NT

[Peter Parry]

That's probably because you asked the wrong question. If you asked about disposing of asbestos cement you would have got an answer similar to these:-

"Disposal of Asbestos Waste

If you are a householder, you intend to transport asbestos cement waste in your own vehicle you do not need to be a registered carrier provided that it is your own waste."

[Holly, in France]

Oh go on then :-) But I shall have to have another go at explaining what I meant. I *think* it is you misunderstanding me rather than vice versa, but I could be wrong! Any independent arbiters reading? :-)

Yes, but even if you had, I would have replied as I did. Ordinarily you would be quite right in saying that the chances were that the panels were white asbestos rather than brown (very unlikely to be blue) White in a situation such as this would be more common. *Except* that the OP mentioned a likeness to plasterboard. Usually white asbestos is found in asbestos cement rather than in any type of board which could be likened to plasterboard. Usually any board which could be likened to plasterboard would be more likely to contain brown asbestos than white.

Is that any clearer?! Shall we give up or would you like to have the last word? :-))

You were absolutely right as long as it was a cement type product as described by Peter Parry.

So do I, clearly :-) In fact it might not be you at all, it might just be me.....

-- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website:

[Badger]

Having been on an asbestos awareness course I'd leave it well alone and call in a specialist to sample it. It could be mill board (~90% asbestos) or similar.

Niel.

[Cuprager]

Exact details of equipment specs etc i dont know, im just passing on what the sampler told me... i am a nosy sort that likes to know what is going on!

To quote your earlier post...

"You could carefully break off a small corner and look at it closely. If you can see fibers I think it would be worth getting it tested by your local authority"

You didnt mention anything to the op about suits and masks.

Why didnt you mention this to the op then? The consequences are a little more frightening than giving bum plumbing advice etc!

You are astounded by what? Me urging the OP to treat asbestos with the respect that it deserves? I think that your comments are reckless and dangerous and put into practice they could harm peoples health.

Again you now mention suit and mask.

as did hundreds

Not picking on you but what if the op had broke apart the board going by your advice, had a good look to see if there were fibers there, maybe passed the bit of board to his wife who had the kids at her feet to have a look... not a nice thought, is it?

[Peter Parry]

Why ever not? Assuming it was an asbestos containing board it is most likely Chrysotile cement - the risk from a single incident of breaking up a dozen sheets of this with an angle grinder in a sealed room and then holding a line dance in the debris is for all practical purposes as close to zero as makes no difference. Given the total disregard for asbestos in the past if occasional exposure was so hazardous we should all be long-dead. Even ironing boards contained asbestos. In the very unlikely event of it being Amosite or Crocidolite (almost impossible) the chances of harm from taking a small sample are still negligible. Even in the USA - where asbestos litigation is rife - the recommended way of a householder taking a sample of _any_ suspect material (serpentine or amphibole) to send off for analysis is:-

*Only the person taking the sample should be in the room. That person should be wearing rubber gloves. *Shut down air conditioning, fans, or any other ventilation systems that would blow fibers around. *Before you begin, prepare the material by wetting it lightly. Wet fibers are much less likely to become airborne than dry ones. *Do not disturb the material any more than is required to take a small sample. *The sample should include the full depth of the dampened material, though should be quite small. *Store the sample in a clean sample container (35mm film canister, small glass, plastic vial, or whatever container comes in the kit). *After the sample is in the container - tightly seal it. *Use a damp paper towel to clean up any material on the outside of the container or spilled onto the floor. *Cover the hole created by removing the sample with a small piece of duct tape to prevent further spread of fibers.

Note - No need for masks or disposable overalls if you don't make a living doing this procedure.

However, asbestos products, particularly those containing the amphibole group forms, are without any doubt the greatest single cause of fatal _industrial_ injury.

There is also no doubt that the risk from all forms is largely related to the amount and the period of exposure. Asbestos diseases follow a dose?response relationship curve. The more asbestos you inhale the greater your risk of contracting an asbestos?related disease.

risk of occasional exposure is not zero but it is very small. The vast majority of the approximately 3,000 asbestos related deaths in the uk each year are amongst people who worked in industries where they were exposed to large amounts of asbestos fibre for many years.

is worth reading as well.

Chrysotile Asbestos is a hazard - it has the potential to cause harm. However occasional exposure carries an extremely low risk.

[Peter Parry]

I hope neither you nor your employer paid for this "awareness" course.

[Rob Morley]

Sounds like it might have been sponsored by a "specialist".

[Cuprager]

All points taken, but *I* would neither recommend breaking asb board apart to have a look for the fibers or do it myself... i dont see the point in putting yourself at that kind of risk. I certainly wouldnt advise anyone in a newsgroup who obviously knows very little about the asb subject to do it...

Most local authorities will have a testing team that can do it for you professionally for a small cost. My local authority charges £25 to sample... not a lot of money considering the potential hazard.

Feel free to have the last word now :o)

[Huge]

The world's gone mad. We're having some subsidence damage repaired at the moment (mostly cosmetics). Two of the rooms concerned have textured ceiling finishes - one Artex and one Polyripple. We've asked for them to be skimmed over, rather than repaired, and the insurers have agreed. Nontheless, they insisted that the finishes had to be tested for asbestos, and sent a specialist contractor to collect and test samples.

The contractor just scraped some bits into a poly bag without bothering with any PPE. When I asked why, he said "there's no asbestos in any of this". He was still happy to collect £80 per sample, though.

No wonder insurance premiums are going through the roof. (As it were.)

[Peter Parry]

What kind of risk? The risk associated with occasional exposure is so small it is almost impossible to define - crossing a road is far more dangerous.

Hazard is the potential to cause harm. Risk is a measure of the likelihood of a specified harmful effect in specified circumstances. It is important to distinguish between hazard and risk. Asbestos is a classic example of how hazard alone does not make a risk.

Although there is no safe level for exposure to asbestos the lowest level which people have been known to develop health problems from asbestos is 1f/ml over an exposure period of 20 years.

The background level in towns of asbestos fibres is about 0.000003 to

0.0003 fibres per milliliter (f/ml) of air. In buildings the background level is about 0.000007 to 0.006 f/ml. One fibre _can_ kill - but it almost never does, we all breath several fibres each and every day.

The Ontario Royal Commission on Asbestos assumed a building exposure level of 0.001 f/ml and calculated this gave a risk (over 10 years) of about 20:1,000,000, about 1/50th of the death risk of driving 10 miles a day to work. The UK DOE calculated a lifetime risk of about

1:100,000 or 1/100th of the risk to non smokers of passive exposure to others cigarette smoke.

If you chose not to take the small risk of collecting a sample that is your choice - but in terms of risk to your family going for a 2 mile car drive is much more dangerous.

[Holly, in France]

Well, if you have feel like being nosy again, please ask them. They really can't suck off bits of asbestos board! I guess that if they are using a tool they must be getting the tool out of the sealed system somehow, or using disposable tools, or taking them out for decontamination afterwards.

Yes, I am well aware of what I wrote. Analysts are sometimes sampling all day long, day in, day out. They don't know until they get to a site what they are going to find. It is their job. It's very different taking

9000 samples in a workplace to one person taking one sample, once, in one domestic garage.

Because we weren't talking about employees then, who as analysts would be doing it all the time, we were talking about a one off sample in a domestic garage.

If I felt there were any frightening consequences I wouldn't have suggested it.

requires a microscope.

What I meant was that I am astounded by the panic that the word asbestos appears to induce in people, regardless of the type of asbestos and the material, quantity and situation in which it is present. Also somewhat surprised by the fact that despite possibly never having seen asbestos fibres you are advising people about their size and are frightened by my description of them. The ones that do the damage are very tiny indeed, the biggest visible clumps I have seen in any product are probably about

2mm diameter. Bigger clumps in samples, museums etc.

Fair enough, we must agree to differ then.

Because I have done it hundreds, I would imagine thousands, of times. If for example I were buying a house and had to do it once, now, in a garage, I would. If I were doing it day in day out I would not.

I really can't see the logic in this. If I had thought there was any significant risk to the OP I wouldn't have suggested it in the first place. Why would his wife and children be at any more at risk than the OP? The fibres in the board are not going to jump out and attack anyone, they will stay where they are as long as they are not disturbed. I wouldn't give it to children to handle obviously!

I'm not saying that asbestos is a safe substance, it's clearly not, it can be lethal. I spent most of my career sampling, analysing and advising on the removal of it. I'm saying that one has to assess the risk in each individual case, and that is what I did here. I agree entirely with your point in another post about asking the local authority to have a look, that is the best course of action. But.....if people are afraid to do that, as they sometimes seem to be, for fear of the cost implications (not of the sampling but of the consequences of the visit), insurance implications, house price devaluation, etc etc, that is their decision. If they wish to carefully take a sample and post it off for analysis if necessary, then depending on the situation and material in question, I think that is acceptable.

I understand that you don't feel the same way. There are probably still people about who would happily rip off sprayed coating in the middle of the night if they could get away with it, and at the other end of the scale are the 'one fibre of any type of asbestos is lethal' people. Most peoples views will be somewhere in between, and I'm sure we all think that we have a reasonable and balanced view of the situation. Yours is different to mine, Peters is different again.

Last word welcome etc :-)

Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website:

[Cuprager]

The world would be a very boring place if everyone agreed and harbored the same opinions! We dont agree and i am glad as its far more interesting :o)

[Holly, in France]

Damn and blast, I agree!

and think of all the job losses and the loss to the economy if all the asbestos consultants went out of business......:-)

-- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website:

[Badger]

My employer did, with buildings of varying ages, and one 80's building (a medical training centre) in which ALL the air handling ducts are made from unsealed asbestos sheet, they see it as a worthwhile exercise. The presenter was the site asbestos officer, formerly the county surveyors asbestos specialist. The only surprising thing was at the current levels we all average one fibre in each breath we take. Living and working in a "hot-spot" area and having lost several family members due to asbestos I'd rather people didn't take the risk and perhaps more importantly expose others in the process. That bloke jet washing the moss off his garage roof, cement=safe, asbestos cement safe until it dries and the released fibres become airbourne....

So yes, very worthwhile.

[Paul]

Hello again group,

My what an active and opionated lot you all are! Thanks to all for the varied adviced and thoughts posted. I've seen there's been a few questions about the house age etc... so here's a bit more info.

House was built in 1964 (so prime time for asbestos me thinks) and the garage was built at the same same - attached to the house with a flat roof with a patio on top (dont ask). The boards are on the inside of the roof and I think they're there for fire-proofing. At the moment they are painted so can't really say alot about them. I need to remove them as the garage is being ripped down and replaced with a two story extension.

Someone mentioned about getting a test done by the local authority - is this costly? and if they find asbestos can they force you to have it removed at exhorbitant rates?

Any more thoughts or advice always welcome ;-)

TIA,

Paul.