Asbestos roof lining material (not corraguted)

Hi Group,
Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere but I can't seem to find anything specific - there's *plenty* of talk about the old corraguated boards used for roofing sheds/garages etc.... but I'm looking for some advise about the panels used on the INSIDE of the garage roof, I'm guessing for fire retardant (its an attached garage). They look similar to sheets of pasterboard - but I'm pretty sure they're not!
How evil is this asbestos? Can you even tell/guess? If I want to remove it (the garage is coming down so I need to....), is it ok to remove it as whole pannels, wetted, bagged etc....
Thanks for any info.
Paul.
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Paul wrote:

All asbestos is evil. Chances are the panels are white asbestos though (AIUI!) which is the least evil. The only way to be sure is to have someone licensed to do solid material (rather than air-sample) testing come and remove a piece for examination.
If you remove it yourself it will need to be disposed by a licensed disposal company. Personally I'd rather pay someone else to get rid of it...
Useful links:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/index.htm http://www.tica-acad.co.uk/database.htm
Jim
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:24 +0000, Jim wrote:

Without knowing exactly what type it is it's difficult to comment. But the grey/white stuff is generally the least evil in solid form.
It only takes 1 fibre to start a lung problem. Then again, your flower beds contain real live anthrax bugs. It's a question of probabilities and the probabilities of solid asbestos panels causing you grief are quite small. I've never been particularly worried about stable asbestos panels, plenty of them around. At work, the professional opinion from the specialists is:
Painted (eg windowsills, fine, leave it alone, just don't drill it) Unpainted - (eg firebrake over doors, wall) not really a problem, but if building work is commencing, take it out prior just to be done with it as builders likely to break it anyway.

It is possible to remove it yourself. Your local dump should be able to advise and many will take it double-bagged (they supply the bags). You need to make prior arrangement with them.
Upto you - it's your lungs. If it were me, I'd be happy to remove solid stable panels, but I'd douse in diluted PVA all over first, then let dry and when taking down, douse in water and keep it wet. I'd consider bagging up a couple of inches of top soil around the work area too.
Tim
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On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:02:24 +0000, Jim

No it won't. You can take it to the appropriate local amenity waste site yourself.
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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Peter Parry wrote:

That's not what I've been advised by the local council:

HTH,
Jim
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:28:36 +0000, Jim

That's probably because you asked the wrong question. If you asked about disposing of asbestos cement you would have got an answer similar to these:-
http://www.tameside.gov.uk/ehealth/new/asbestos1.htm http://www.bradford.gov.uk/council/waste_management/asbestos_advice.asp http://www.swindon.gov.uk/publicservices/waste/householdwaste/asbestosremoval.htm
"Disposal of Asbestos Waste
If you are a householder, you intend to transport asbestos cement waste in your own vehicle you do not need to be a registered carrier provided that it is your own waste."
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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Jim wrote:

though
testing
of it...

Nonsense from start to finish.
Get it straight from the researchers: www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/ACM.pdf
The brief summary: white asbestos is perfectly safe, nearly all asbestos is white. but if its blue or brown asbestos, theyre very different substances to white, and not at all safe. Blue and brown are easy to spot, theyre blue and brown respectively!
NT
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snipped-for-privacy@meeow.co.uk wrote:

Ah, kicking off with a sweeping statement in true Usenet (yes, I know uk.* isn't usenet) style :-)

Suggest you read the link you posted more thoroughly:
"All can be dangerous, but blue and brown asbestos are known to be more dangerous than white. "
Which rather suggests it's far from "perfectly safe".
However, if it's well contained there's no reason why it can be left in place "perfectly safely". Nothing in my original post contradicts that statement...

The fibres may be, but the material they are contained in may not appear blue or brown.
Jim
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Jim wrote:

Im not going to argue with you. I gave you the report link, job done.

I read it all, theres no need for nonsense. Last says yours Ive got better things to do.
NT
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This would normally be true, except that the OP likened the product to plasterboard. Asbestos cement is IMO not likely to be likened to plasterboard, asbestos or non-asbestos insulating board might be.

This is also true. Air sampling is unlikely to be suggested anyway unless a sample of the material has been taken and tested and there is reason to believe that asbestos fibres have been released into the air for some reason.

That would depend on what it was.

Less nonsense than what you wrote IMO.

Note that I am not disputing what is on that site or what Asbestos Watchdog do. I am disputing your interpretation of it.

This is nonsense, it isn't. That site does not say that. Or if it does, I can't find where, perhaps if you disagree you could quote the relevant section?

This is also nonsense. Nearly all the asbestos that ordinary householders are likely to have in their houses is white, sure, because the most likely product that they will have is asbestos cement.

Yes, they are different substances. Brown asbestos if very different to blue asbestos too.

They are as safe as anything else if they are bound in another substance and not disturbed.

They are sometimes easy to spot, if you know what you are looking for. They can also be present as fibres which are too small to see with the naked eye but in quantities which will produce high levels of fibres in the air if disturbed.

Blue is blue certainly, but at a fibre size big enough to see with the naked eye the blue is not always visible. Amosite varies from very pale brown, almost white, to quite a dark brown and can also be too small to see with the naked eye.
-- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr

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Holly, in France wrote:

Hmm, I missed the "if it is asbestos" in there didn't I... [1]
Been readonly on news for a long long time and had forgotten how careful you have to be with your wording to avoid alternative interpretations... :-|

Missing bit: "I only mention this because a previous neighbour, whose ceiling disintegrated after a water leak was told they had artex with asbestos in. Their insurers insisted in having it tested for asbestos, and sent along a company who, it turns out, were only licensed/experienced in doing air samples. Subsequent analysis by a company familiar with solid sample analysis showed that it was in fact just artex"...

Absolutely :-) (See [1]).
I think I'll go back to readonly mode now...
Jim
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to
Hmm, I don't think 'if it is asbestos' would have made a difference. In this case, given the comment about the plasterboard, I just thought that the chances that it was white asbestos were not as high as they would otherwise/usually have been. Hope that makes sense.

is
air
Yes, I see now why you said it. As I have just said in another reply, times have changed since I was in this business. I didn't know that there were companies licensed or experienced only in doing air samples.

Absolutely :-)

That would be a shame. I wasn't meaning to nitpick or put you off! -- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr
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Holly, in France wrote:

I'll play my "alternative interpretation" card again there then :-)
Clearly I should have said "Chances are, if it is asbestos, the panels are white asbestos rather than blue or brown".
However, that was based on an assumption that that sort of product is more likely to contain white than brown/blue though, and on that point I might be scuppered because I can't remember where I got that from now I come to think about it... :-|

I just forget I lack sufficient eloquence for effective news posting :-)
Jim
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Oh go on then :-) But I shall have to have another go at explaining what I meant. I *think* it is you misunderstanding me rather than vice versa, but I could be wrong! Any independent arbiters reading? :-)

Yes, but even if you had, I would have replied as I did. Ordinarily you would be quite right in saying that the chances were that the panels were white asbestos rather than brown (very unlikely to be blue) White in a situation such as this would be more common. *Except* that the OP mentioned a likeness to plasterboard. Usually white asbestos is found in asbestos cement rather than in any type of board which could be likened to plasterboard. Usually any board which could be likened to plasterboard would be more likely to contain brown asbestos than white.
Is that any clearer?! Shall we give up or would you like to have the last word? :-))

I
I
You were absolutely right as long as it was a cement type product as described by Peter Parry.

:-)
So do I, clearly :-) In fact it might not be you at all, it might just be me.....
-- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr
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Paul wrote:

Evil is a very good word for it. What you have is probably AIB (Asb Insulation Board) which was used as you suggest as a fire retarder.
If it was mine then i would pay someone to come in and remove it, while they were doing it i would take the family out for the day too! Mesathelioma is a terrible way to die and for the sake of a few i would never run the risk.
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On 22 Feb 2005 04:28:28 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@linemarkingservices.co.uk (Paul) wrote:

If it is asbestos cement sheet it will be quite hard, whitish grey in colour and usually have one plain side and one dimpled side. It is essentially the same stuff as the corrugated version.

Not particularly. The panic about asbestos is largely due to there being no minimum exposure level below which it is safe and the old nonsense about "one fibre causes cancer" is regularly trotted out. This scaremongering rather ignores the fact that most people in this country breath several strands a day and the vast majority of asbestos related illness is found in people who worked with it or in contact with it for many years with high exposures.
The primary significance of the "no safe dose" is that cases of asbestos related illness are indefensible in court so can be very costly. White asbestos (Chrysotile) makes up about 10% of your board, the rest is cement.

Yes - your local council will have at least one amenity tip licensed to take asbestos cement board. Some make a charge (which is why it often finds its way onto roadside verges where councils are happy to let it sit for weeks).
--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/
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Perfect description. Paul, is that what you have got? If so you could damp it down and remove it and dispose of it as others have suggested.
If what you have is a pale grey/brown board, thickness something like plasterboard, softer than asbestos cement, it might or might not be an asbestos insulating board containing amosite, or brown asbestos. How old is the building? You could carefully break off a small corner and look at it closely. If you can see fibres I think it would be worth getting it tested by your local authority, if they offer this service, or otherwise by a private asbestos analyst. You would be able to see asbestos fibres in this type of board, but then again some boards were fibrous and didn't contain asbestos. If you can see shiny flecks of mica it is most probably 'supalux' and is unlikely to contain asbestos. You are not going to know for certain unless you have it tested. IF you could find someone who has seen enough of these boards, and IF they were willing to give an opinion, they would have a good chance of knowing without microscopy, but I think it unlikely you would find anyone these days.
Why do you want to remove it at all? Because you fear it contains asbestos or because you are doing something else with the garage? If it is in good condition and painted, you could just leave it alone...
Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr
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Holly, in France wrote:

DONT BREAK THE CORNER OFF TO HAVE A LOOK !!! Utter stupidity. If it was asb then it is not identifiable by eye... the fibres are 100x 'thinner' than a human hair.
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How do you think analysts take samples?

It can be perfectly visible by eye. Positive identification requires a microscope.

Have you ever seen any? They vary. The larger 'fibres' are smaller fibres clumped together.
-- Holly, in France. Holiday home in the Dordogne, website: http://la-plaine.chez.tiscali.fr
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Holly, in France wrote:

They take them by vacuum sealing around the sample area, and use a suction system... my workplace has just been sampled, more than 9000 samples taken like this. Do you think that someone who works in the asbestos industry would be breaking apart material that they do not know to 'see' if there is asbestos there? Have you ever heard of corporate liability? Would you ask an employee to identify it like this????

These comments frighten me. I hope for the sake of you and those around you that havent tried out your theory too many times!

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