Wind chill and water pipes

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On Fri, 10 Jan 2014 14:47:45 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

<Snip> Did I strike a nerve?
Answer the questions with a "yes" or "no" only. Anything else would be as you have claimed, a non answer.
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On Friday, January 10, 2014 8:42:39 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:

No, I just enjoy seeing you continue to run away from any discussion of the science involved.

Have you stopped beating your wife? Answer with a yes or no only. I answered all your questions, in detail, with the science behind it. I just posed a question to you that goes to the core of the original question and you totally ignored it. So, who again is not being responsive? Idiot.
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On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 05:41:24 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"
<Snip>

I know the answer to that question. Why don't you ask the rest of the group?
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On Sat, 11 Jan 2014 09:29:39 -0600, Gordon Shumway

You are, of course.
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On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The reported windchill is directly dependent on the wind. Let's say the weatherman was giving his report and you missed what he said about the wind. Let's look at two different reports:
A - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight with a windchill of 20F.
B - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight with a windchill of 0F.
You have a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin. Would you think there is more reason to be concerned about pipes freezing overnight in case A or B?

BS. The windchill is directly dependent on windspeed. It can be used as a proxy for windspeed. If the forecasted temp is 20F and the windchill is also 20F, what does that tell you about the wind?: no wind. If it's forecsted to be 20F with a windchill of 0F, that tells you there is going to be a strong wind and you should be more concerned about pipes freezing in a draft crawspace, unheated cabin, etc.
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On Tue, 7 Jan 2014 05:20:02 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

<Snip>

Either scenario could result in frozen pipes. What's your point?
<Snip>

The only difference in either scenario is time. Wind chill is irrelevant.
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On Tuesday, January 7, 2014 1:19:50 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:

Try answering the actual question, instead of avoiding it. The question was in which case are PIPE MORE LIKELY TO FREEZE? Scenario B is more likely to result in frozen pipes. And I've provided credible references that say so.
Why don't you just man up and admit that you were wrong when you said that "Wind chill has no effect on inanimate objects"?

Are you totally stupid? Does the temperature stay constant in your world? Or does it typically vary, very commonly going down overnight? Let's say it's 35F out at 6PM. Overnight the temp is going down to 20F. At 6AM it starts to rise and by 9AM, it's above freezing again. That is a very common occurrence. If the only effect on the pipes of windchill is how long it takes to freeze, then with a large windchill, in that drafty crawlspace or unheated cabing they may have enough time to freeze. Without that windchill, the pipes are less likely to HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO FREEZE. Good grief.
BTW, apparently you now agree that inanimate objects are affected by windchill. That's a start.
The Weather Channel, NOAA, Univ of Illinois, City of Rochester all say windchill has an effect on inanimate objects and the freezing of pipes:
Here, from the Weather Channel: http://www.weather.com/activities/homeandgarden/home/hometips/severeweather /pipefreeze_prevent.html
"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to free zing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside a ir to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has sho wn that “wind chill,� the coolin g effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipe s. "
From City of Rochester:
http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Documents/RochesterNH_DPW/FROZEN%20WATER% 20PIPES.pdf "Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze, especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is not circulating in those areas."
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On Wed, 8 Jan 2014 05:25:50 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

See my other reply.

You call me stupid when you ask questions like that?

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On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon

Both. If the wind can get to the pipes, they will freeze faster with a wind chill of -10F than a temperature of 0F with no wind. If the wind can't get at the pipes, wind-chill doesn't matter.

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On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 00:35:58 +0000 (UTC), Red Green

But if you're smart, you move someplace better than where it stays below 0F for days, or weeks, on end. It'll be cold here next week, too. The highs will be in the 30s next week (but back to 60 for the weekend).
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On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon

will not drop them below the actual ambient temperature.
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'Stormin Mormon[_10_ Wrote: > ;3176501']

The pipe will cool down to 0 degrees F., and no colder. The wind chill only means it'll cool down faster than if there was no wind.
The correct way to think about it is that if the ambient temperature is 0 deg. F, then the pipe and the water in it will not get colder than 0 degrees F.
The greater the wind chill, however, the faster a pipe with warm water in it will cool down to 0 deg. F.
Wind increases the RATE of heat loss, not the ultimate temperature a body cools down to. If the pipe were to get colder than 0 degrees F, then the stronger the wind, the faster it would be warmed up by the air to 0 degrees F.
So, if your pipe is gonna burst, it'll burst a few minutes sooner with a wind than without, but the strength of the wind only determines how quickly that pipe cools down, not what temperature it cools down to. It cools down to the ambient temperature, which is the temperature without considering any effect of wind chill.
--
nestork


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On 1/3/2014 10:43 PM, nestork wrote:

It's going to warm up tomorrow. Since the wind chill freezes pipes sooner, it's definitely a concern, and I do need to consider the wind chill. Thank you.
--
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Christopher A. Young
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On 1/4/2014 3:42 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

nestork gave a good explanation, but instead of wind chill. we should call it wind effect.
Does the wind hit the pipes? If yes, it can carry heat away faster, if no, it won't matter how strong the wind is.
When the weatherman gives wind chill numbers, he is talking about how human skin exposed to the wind feels. I was just out in my garage at -7 wearing a heavy jacket, hat and shorts. No wind, it was not a big deal.
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On Friday, January 3, 2014 10:43:59 PM UTC-5, nestork wrote:

That isn't true. Take a somewhat drafty crawlspace. Put a thermometer a various places inside it. Measure the low temps recorded when:
A - It's 20F outside and no wind
B - It's 20F outside and there is a 35mph wind.
You think the low temps are going to be the same?
That's a real potential pipe freezing example and the lower the wind chill, the more likely the pipes will freeze.

Yes, if the body is fully exposed. But many, probably most pipe freezing situations are one where the pipe is not outside, but partially protected, eg the crawlspace example. If it's fullly exposed, then it;s likely drained, winterized, etc.
If the pipe were to get colder than 0 degrees F,

Per the crawlspace example, it can also effect what low temperature it sees. Here;s another example. Suppose you have a cabin with water pipes inside. The cabin is at 40F. Overnight it's going down to 20F. Do you not agree that it's more likely the pipes will freeze with a 35mph wind blowing, hence a windchill of 3F, than it would be with still air and a windchill of 20F?
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On 1/3/2014 2:11 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Has everything to do with the individual situation. Any wrapping? Any heat that can transfer from living space? Is pipe in insulated wall? Is there dead air space around pipe, or is it vulnerable to the wind?
Lots and lots and lots and lots of variables, according to many things, right down to what pipe is made of.
Steve
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On 1/4/2014 12:09 AM, SteveB wrote:

foam wrap and heat tape. Once it goes into the floor, no wrap.
Any

that can transfer.
Is pipe in insulated wall? SM: Much of it (about 30 feet) is not.
Is

through. Bitter cold air, too.

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This has nothing to do with wind chill...but it gives you pretty much the m agic number for a pipe to burst. From "The Weather Channel"!
When should homeowners be alert to the danger of freezing pipes? That depen ds, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather is the ex ception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not provide adequat e built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold is 20°F.
This threshold is based upon research conducted by the Building Research Co uncil at the University of Illinois. Field tests of residential water syste ms subjected to winter temperatures demonstrated that, for un-insulated pip es installed in an unconditioned attic, the onset of freezing occurred when the outside temperature fell to 20°F or below.
This finding was supported by a survey of 71 plumbers practicing in souther n states, in which the consensus was that burst-pipe problems began to appe ar when temperatures fell into the teens. (Note: Please disregard any wind chill! *J*)
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On 1/6/2014 3:19 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:

Good info. Statistics are great for doing statistical things. Statistics are not so great for individual situations. If your pipes are frozen, knowing that nobody else's froze is of little consolation. There's no substitute for evaluuating YOUR situation and taking actions appropriate to YOUR situation.
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'mike[_22_ Wrote: > ;3178136']

> depends, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather > is the exception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not > provide adequate built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold > is 20F.

I fully understand that in some parts of your country, "winter" is when you put on a sweater before going outside.
But, I don't understand why architects can't design homes where the potable water supply piping always runs up through interior walls so that people don't have to be concerned about their pipes cracking the odd time the temperature does drop below 20 deg. F.
Alternatively, why not fasten electric heating cables to those pipes and insulate the assembly to eliminate that risk? You could have a switch somewheres that turns on the power to those heating cables, and a thermostat on each cable that maintains the temperature of the pipe at 45 deg. F, say, for good economy.
It just seems to me that the cost of preventing the pipes from freezing is small, but the cost of repairing water damage from a cracked water pipe is large, so why not spend a little bit up front to avoid paying a lot later on down the road.
--
nestork


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