Wind chill and water pipes

[trader4]

"Wind chill" has no effect on inanimate objects. Period, if I may quote our fearless leader. "

Your own source at NOAA even says you're wrong.

[Stormin Mormon]

It's Obama's fault. Clearly, so.

[trader4]

The windchill number reflects the increased heat transfer that wind causes. The only two component are temp and wind speed. Do you disagree that water pipes are more likely to freeze in a crawlspace, a house with no heat, etc on a night when the windchill is 0F, instead of 20F, even when the actual overnight temp is 20F on both nights?

If it has nothing to do with the reported windchill, then you're answer to the above question is that it makes no difference? The pipes are just as likely to freeze in that crawlspace on a night when the windchill is 0F, as they are when the windchill is

20F, even though the outside air is 20F, both nights?

Here, from the Weather Channel:

/pipefreeze_prevent.html

"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to free zing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside a ir to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has sho wn that â??wind chill,â?? the cooling effect of air and wind th at causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in acceleratin g ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes. "

From City of Rochester:

20PIPES.pdf "Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze, especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is not circulating in those areas."

[Ed Pawlowski]

Affected how? The wind may make then freeze a bit faster by removing heat faster, but regardless of the wind chill number, the pipes will never see anything below 0 degrees.

No. If the temperature is 35 and the wind chill is 25, the pipes will not freeze. They will never go below 35F

Best to ask Gordon.

Gets back to definitions. Wind can move heat away faster but inanimate objects will never feel the "chill" number, only the actual number. They may get there a bit faster though. NOAA confused things with their definition. .

>

[Ed Pawlowski]

Yes, but they won't freeze if the air temperature is 33 degrees and the wind chill is 20. See the difference?

The problem still goes back to definition. It has become diluted from the original intent of how the body feels. Yes, wind can carry heat away faster, but it will never reduce it below actual temperature on an inanimate object. Many weather reports now use the "real feel" designation and it considers how hot you feel on a warm and dry versus warm and humid day. Same with cold. But the thermometer does not change.

[Gordon Shumway]

It's a losing battle, Ed.

[Bob_Villa]

This has nothing to do with wind chill...but it gives you pretty much the m agic number for a pipe to burst. From "The Weather Channel"!

When should homeowners be alert to the danger of freezing pipes? That depen ds, but in southern states and other areas where freezing weather is the ex ception rather than the rule (and where houses often do not provide adequat e built-in protection), the temperature alert threshold is 20°F.

This threshold is based upon research conducted by the Building Research Co uncil at the University of Illinois. Field tests of residential water syste ms subjected to winter temperatures demonstrated that, for un-insulated pip es installed in an unconditioned attic, the onset of freezing occurred when the outside temperature fell to 20°F or below.

This finding was supported by a survey of 71 plumbers practicing in souther n states, in which the consensus was that burst-pipe problems began to appe ar when temperatures fell into the teens. (Note: Please disregard any wind chill! *J*)

[mike]

If the wind speed at the surface of the pipe is not zero, you expect the pipes to freeze more quickly. How much more quickly depends on many factors...ALL of which are more important than that number scrolling across the bottom of your TV screen.

In my crawlspace it's 55F year round virtually independent of wind speed...because I pay attention to all those other factors that are way more important than the windchill number scrolling across the TV.

[mike]

Good info. Statistics are great for doing statistical things. Statistics are not so great for individual situations. If your pipes are frozen, knowing that nobody else's froze is of little consolation. There's no substitute for evaluuating YOUR situation and taking actions appropriate to YOUR situation.

[nestork]

I fully understand that in some parts of your country, "winter" is when you put on a sweater before going outside.

But, I don't understand why architects can't design homes where the potable water supply piping always runs up through interior walls so that people don't have to be concerned about their pipes cracking the odd time the temperature does drop below 20 deg. F.

Alternatively, why not fasten electric heating cables to those pipes and insulate the assembly to eliminate that risk? You could have a switch somewheres that turns on the power to those heating cables, and a thermostat on each cable that maintains the temperature of the pipe at

45 deg. F, say, for good economy.

It just seems to me that the cost of preventing the pipes from freezing is small, but the cost of repairing water damage from a cracked water pipe is large, so why not spend a little bit up front to avoid paying a lot later on down the road.

[Stormin Mormon]

And here's a laugh on me:

Tues Jan 07, 2014, 07:00 AM

My outdoor thermometer says -1F.

First time in years I've seen minus F temps out there. I guess NYS is not experiencing global warming. At least, not this morning.

Something froze. My hot water isn't flowing. Cold is fine. I'll be outdoors in a few minutes with electric heat gun, trying to thaw pipes. Not going to use a torch.

[trader4]

It would help if you didn't edit out the pertinent part you're responding to and would at least answer the simple questions posed. I gave you two examples:

"The answer is both of them. At 0F, it's cold enough to freeze pipes. And depending on where the pipes are, they can be affected by the windchill. Again, just two examples:

A - Pipes are in a cabin with no heat. Do you think the cabin inside temp will be the same overnight as the temp drops without regard to what the windchill is? If the reported windchill was large, would you not agree that the pipes are going to be more likely to freeze?

B - Pipes in a drafty crawlspace. "

The temps that the crawlspace reaches on a cold night is affected by the windchill. So is the temperature that an unheated cabin will reach inside. With significant windchill they could reach temps overnight that they would not reach without windchill. It's that simple.

Why do you persist in only looking at the case where the outside temp is well above zero? Good grief. The question and context that started all this, again, was where the temp was ZERO and there was an additional 10 deg of winchill.

I thought maybe you'd have an answer, because you seem just as confused and unwilling to accept the fact that windchill does affect inanimate objects. Like him, you're stuck in a loop:

It has no effect, it doesn't matter, it can have nothing to do with pipes freezing. But then you say the only effect windchill has is to cool off inanimate objects faster.

No one said they can feel the number. Only that they can be affected by it too. Again, the drafty crawlspace, the unheated cabin.

It's not just a question of a bit faster. Again, on a night where the outside temp drops to 20F and the windchill is 0F, do you think the lowest temp of an unheated cabin is going to be the same as it is if the windchill was reported as 20F? That is a very realistic example where it makes a difference.

NOAA confused things with their

I don't see a problem with their definition. They did contradict themselves in answering the question. But even they say windchill affect pipess.

[trader4]

The reported windchill is directly dependent on the wind. Let's say the weatherman was giving his report and you missed what he said about the wind. Let's look at two different reports:

A - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight with a windchill of 20F.

B - It's currently 35F and it's going to drop to 20F overnight with a windchill of 0F.

You have a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin. Would you think there is more reason to be concerned about pipes freezing overnight in case A or B?

BS. The windchill is directly dependent on windspeed. It can be used as a proxy for windspeed. If the forecasted temp is

20F and the windchill is also 20F, what does that tell you about the wind?: no wind. If it's forecsted to be 20F with a windchill of 0F, that tells you there is going to be a strong wind and you should be more concerned about pipes freezing in a draft crawspace, unheated cabin, etc.

[Stormin Mormon]

8:25 AM, about an hour and a half later. Hot works in the kitchen,and a little bit in the bathroom sink. Lost the cold in the bathroom sink. Shower and tub diverter seems frozen. The WH cabinet has vent which is wide open, about 12 x 18 inches, and the wind is blowing from that direction. I'm rigging a patch for that vent grille, cover that.

My fingers are serious cold, and I'm not enjoying being out in the cold. Wishing I had a caged 100 watt light bulb I could put out there. And wait for it to thaw.

[trader4]

Yes I do. But continuing to use cases where the temp is above freezing doesn't show that the lower the reported windchill, the more likely pipes in a drafty crawlspace or an unheated cabin are to freeze when the temps are well below freezing. Again the qustion posed wasn't about 35F. It was about a day with 0F actual,

-10F windchill.

freezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outsi de air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has shown that â??wind chill,â?? the co oling effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can p lay a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes."

TER%20PIPES.pdf

As someone else pointed out to you several posts ago, that isn't true either. You're just adding to the confusion. Any inanimate object with moisture that can evaporate can be reduced to a temp below that of the air by evaporative cooling.

Many weather reports now use the "real feel"

No one said the thermometer changes. Only that in the case that started this, where it's 0F with a windchill of -10F, that:

A - windchill does have an effect on inanimate objects

B - in cases like that, where it's below freezing, the lower the windchill, the more likely pipes are to freeze in a drafty crawlspace, an unheated cabin, etc.

Again, if all you heard on the weather report was that it was going to drop to 20F overnight and the windchill, would you be more concerned about pipes in a drafty crawlspace freezing with a reported windchill of 20F, or with a windchill of 0F?

[trader4]

Yes and the Weather Channel, City of Rochester, Univ of Illinois all say you've lost:

Here, from the Weather Channel:

eezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has s hown that â??wind chill,â?? the cool ing effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can pla y a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pi pes." >

R%20PIPES.pdf > "Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,

[trader4]

You don't need the windspeed at the pipe. The windspeed at the pipe could be very low. The pipe could be out of the main wind. But a 35mph 15F wind blowing into a drafty crawlspace through a couple of openings could still drop the temp of the rest of the crawlspace low enough to freeze the pipes, even if the air around the pipes is barely moving. Your house gets heated/cooled from a relatively modest amount of air blowing out of registers.

Which doesn't change the fact that windchill has an effect on inanimate objects and can lead to pipes freezing where with no windchill, they would not have.

Here, from the Weather Channel:

eezing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside air to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has s hown that â??wind chill,â?? the cool ing effect of air and wind that causes the human body to lose heat, can pla y a major role in accelerating ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pi pes." >

R%20PIPES.pdf > "Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze,

[trader4]

I would think in most cases, the architect probably doesn't even get to the level of detail that shows exactly where the pipes run and even if they do, plumbers probably do what they feel like. The plumber runs them where it's easy. Classic case is a kitchen sink which usually has a window, so it's in the middle of an outside wall. Not so easy to run pipes to that, versus coming straight up from the basement. In some houses in colder climates, I've seen where they run them up throught the floor for that instead of in the wall where they are hidden, out of the way, etc.

The main thing the architect can do is avoid putting fixtures where the natural way to get to them would be via an outside wall. In the new construction here in NJ that I've seen recently, the only pipes that are in an outside wall have been for the kitchen sink mentioned above. In my house, built in 1983, the kitchen sink and one bathroom toilet line are in outside walls.

[philoÂÂ]

Yesterday it was -15F with a wind-chill of -40

I spent 60 seconds outside. The cat spent 60 seconds outside

and my wife spent 5 seconds outside.

I'm heading out again now but will be back inside soon!

[Stormin Mormon]

9:34 AM. Took a ceramic space heater, and put in the WH cabinet. Now the bath tub faucets work, kitchen sink works, but bathroom sink barely dribbles, either hot or cold, barely dribbles.