Wind chill and water pipes

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On 1/5/2014 9:38 AM, Mike Hunt-Hertz wrote:

I'll try not to do that again. Sorry.
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On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 07:43:02 +0100, nestork

Well, if you're adding heat to an object, it does affect the equilibrium temperature. That's the whole point of cooling fans.
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On 1/4/2014 10:15 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

The thermodynamics are the same, but the conditions are very different. The number scrolling across your TV screen and what's happening inside the walls of your house may be different and different from what's happening inside the walls of my house.
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On 1/4/2014 11:37 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:

Reread FAQ 12. Their statement is, 'The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to more quickly cool the object to cool to the current air temperature. Object will NOT cool below the actual air temperature.' I know in their first statement they confirmed wind chill only applies to people and animals, but they can't have it both ways.
It appears you and the NWS are not in agreement either.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say wind chill temperature only applies to people and animals since it describes a felt condition (I don't subscribe to the idea that inanimate objects 'feel'). And, that wind chill describes the condition where the wind sucks the heat out of anything.
Whatever.
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My belief of question number two is that it is just a minor glitch similar to what the obamakare web site has.

I totally agree with your first sentence.
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On Sunday, January 5, 2014 12:36:25 PM UTC-5, Mike wrote:

Thank you. Another person who sees the contradiction and that what NOAA says is consistent with what I've been saying.

It doesn't just reflect "feel". Wind taking heat away from a human being is what causes the feeling. It's not some majical effect confined to living things. It's caused by wind removing heat faster with a higher wind speed.
The same exact effect applies to inanimate objects, like a bucket of 75F water placed outside when it's 20F. With a lower windchill number, it's going to freeze faster. Clearly that is an effect.
And, that

It sucks the heat above the air temp out of anything, that is correct. NOAA says it. Therefore Gordon's statement that:
"Wind chill" has no effect on inanimate objects. Period, if I may quote our fearless leader. "
is wrong. His own link from NOAA says so.
A bucket of 75F water placed outside when it's 20F with a windchill of 0F is going to freeze faster than if the windchill is 20F.
A house is going to take more energy to keep warm on a night when it's 20F outside, but the windchill is 0F instead of 20F.
And pipes in a drafty crawlspace are more likely to freeze on that 20F night with a windchill of 0F, instead of 20F.
He won't even address any of those. Instead of manning up and admitting he's wrong, he just keeps digging his hole deeper, like some others. We;ve seen it before
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On Sat, 04 Jan 2014 22:37:04 -0600, Gordon Shumway

I don't know if you're just being pedantic, but you're wrong.
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On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 20:28:19 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

I had to look up pedantic. No I'm not to both statements.
Thanks for playing.
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On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 20:47:48 -0600, Gordon Shumway

Then you're simply wrong.

No play.
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On Sun, 05 Jan 2014 20:28:19 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

I was getting ready for bed, sitting on the throne and the figurative light bulb came on! I think I have a way to get my point across once and for all.
I'm sure many of us have done some investigation on this topic. We have probably found that the term wind chill was coined by the American geographer Paul A. Siple sometime in 1939.
Let's pretend that we have all gone over to Mr. Peabody's with Sherman and we climb into the WABAC machine and travel back in time before 1939, let's say the roaring '20's. Long before this thing called wind chill existed. Now let's assume one of you, and I believe Stormy was the sinister individual that started this, is worried about his pipes freezing.
We all know wind chill doesn't exist, because Al Capone says it doesn't, so what would make Stormy's pipes freeze then?
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On Sunday, January 5, 2014 11:02:58 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:

Instead of spinning stories that have nothing to do with anything, why don't you just man up and admit you were wrong when you said:
"Wind chill" has no effect on inanimate objects. Period, if I may quote our fearless leader. "
Your own source at NOAA even says you're wrong.
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On 1/5/2014 11:02 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:

It's Obama's fault. Clearly, so.
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On Mon, 06 Jan 2014 09:05:07 -0500, Stormin Mormon

Not possible. It's *never* Obama's fault. Even when it is, it's George Bush's fault.
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<...snipped...>

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On 1/5/2014 2:20 AM, Larry W wrote:

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On Saturday, January 4, 2014 3:39:20 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I agree and it's a valid point. But that doesn't mean that windchill index doesn't have an effect on inanimate objects, which is what Gordon is claiming. Here is the context of the original question:
"Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind chill -10 or so. Which number is the one which concerns water pipes freezing?
I know the pipes won't get below the actual temp, but are they more likely to freeze, with wind? "
So, you have Gordon claiming windchill has no effect on inanimate objects. Listening to that, should Stormin conclude that there is no possible effect of that lower reported windchill on pipes in a crawlspace? That is what Gordon is claiming, forget about the windchill, it only effects inanimate objects.

I would say it's going to have an effect if it's moving cold air from outside into the crawlspace. That happens if there is wind, which is reflected in the reported windchill index. Even if the air doesn't make it inside, the temp inside the crawlspace is likely to be lower with a higher windchill, because it's moving around the outside of the foundation too. Therefore, in certain conditions, the lower the windchill, the more likely it can be that pipes will freeze.
Many factors come into play on how the wind moves

It could very well determine if they will freeze. Let's say you forgot to drain the pipes and won't be back for a day. If the temps go below freezing overnight, down to 20F, with a significant reported windchill, the pipes in the crawlspace may freeze. With no windchill, they might not have enough time to freeze before the temp rises again in the morning.
Rate of heat transfer is the only

I agree and never suggested otherwise. Note that rate of heat transfer is an effect on inanimate objects.

Which shows that windchill applies to inanimate objects too.
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On 1/5/2014 9:41 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Yes, but that is an efect of the wind, not the wind chill the weatherman talks about how we feel in the wind.

No, it shows the effects of wind but has nothing to do with the windchill factor on the 11 o'clock news
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The multiplier may be different but the concept is *exactly* the same.

Nonsense. The slopes may be different but the physics is the same.
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On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:41:27 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The windchill number reflects the increased heat transfer that wind causes. The only two component are temp and wind speed. Do you disagree that water pipes are more likely to freeze in a crawlspace, a house with no heat, etc on a night when the windchill is 0F, instead of 20F, even when the actual overnight temp is 20F on both nights?

If it has nothing to do with the reported windchill, then you're answer to the above question is that it makes no difference? The pipes are just as likely to freeze in that crawlspace on a night when the windchill is 0F, as they are when the windchill is 20F, even though the outside air is 20F, both nights?
Here, from the Weather Channel: http://www.weather.com/activities/homeandgarden/home/hometips/severeweather /pipefreeze_prevent.html
"Pipes in attics, crawl spaces and outside walls are all vulnerable to free zing, especially if there are cracks or openings that allow cold, outside a ir to flow across the pipes. Research at the University of Illinois has sho wn that “wind chill,â€￾ the cooling effect of air and wind th at causes the human body to lose heat, can play a major role in acceleratin g ice blockage, and thus bursting, in water pipes. "
From City of Rochester:
http://www.rochesternh.net/public_Documents/RochesterNH_DPW/FROZEN%20WATER% 20PIPES.pdf "Pipes inside or outside walls, or in an enclosed area can freeze, especially when the wind-chill factor is well below zero and heat is not circulating in those areas."
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On 1/6/2014 9:14 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Yes, but they won't freeze if the air temperature is 33 degrees and the wind chill is 20. See the difference?

The problem still goes back to definition. It has become diluted from the original intent of how the body feels. Yes, wind can carry heat away faster, but it will never reduce it below actual temperature on an inanimate object. Many weather reports now use the "real feel" designation and it considers how hot you feel on a warm and dry versus warm and humid day. Same with cold. But the thermometer does not change.
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