On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 05:58:31 -0800 (PST), " email@example.com"
No, I didn't contradict myself but you just did. "Wind chill" has no
effect on an inanimate object. Wind chill is just how cold ambient
temperature feels to exposed flesh.
Now can you agree that "how cold it feels to exposed flesh" has no
effect on inanimate objects?
The wind (not wind chill) will have an effect on heat transfer.
On Saturday, January 4, 2014 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
Well, no shit Sherlock. Apparently windchill does have
an effect on an inanimate object.... And let's look at the context,
before you try to hijack it into something else. The question that
was asked was if wind chill was a consideration in pipes posssibly
Your answer, which you apparently cling to, is that wind chill
has no effect on inanimate objects.
Wrong, as demonstated by physics and my various examples.
BS. Wind chill is an index that indicates how wind and in some
cases evaporation, factors in to cooling things. Those "things"
could be you or an inaminate object that is above the outside temp.
Are you really saying that a house with no heat, there is no
reason to be more concerned on a night when the wind chill is 0F,
as opposed to 20F, even if the outside temp is the same?
Yes or no?
How it "feels" matters not a wit. The fact that wind chill is
directly dependent on wind speed and that it can effect how pipes
may freeze in a crawl space, an unheated cabin, etc is fact.
Wrong, because the only component other than temp, of "wind chill"
is windspeed, at least in the US.
On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 11:15:56 -0800 (PST), " firstname.lastname@example.org"
"Wind chill" has no effect on inanimate objects. Period, if I may
quote our fearless leader.
Your various examples are merely demonstrating the effect of wind, not
wind chill. Until you can understand the difference there is no
further point in this conversation.
If I may paraphrase another of our presidents, It's the wind, stupid.
On Saturday, January 4, 2014 5:01:22 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
BS as already proven with the simple examples:
A brick that's 75F when placed outside when it's 20F is going
to cool faster with a windchill of 0F, than with a windchill of
15F. A house is going to take more energy to keep it warm on
a night when the windchill is 0F, than when the windchill is
20F, even if the outside temp both nights is 20F. That's because
windchill has a direct bearing on how heat is removed from
any object, without regard to whether it's alive or not.
You only get wind chill if there is wind. Go look at the formula
for the USA. The only components are temp and wind speed. Wind chill
cools that brick or house cited in the example.
And in the context of the discussion, I'll ask the simple question
again. If you have water pipes in a crawlspace that has some vent openings, drafts, etc and it's 20F outside, are those pipes more likely to freeze on
a night when the windchill is 0F or when it's 20F?
Until you can understand the difference there is no
Nonsense. Why would windchill only remove heat from things that are alive?
If I may paraphrase, you're as dumb as the brick in the example.
Failure to answer the simple, direct question noted. That's a sure
sign that you know you're wrong.
On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 06:24:14 -0800 (PST), " email@example.com"
Here is my last hope at getting you to understand the difference
between "Wind" and "Wind Chill."
Pay particular attention to the frequently asked question number 12.
On Sunday, January 5, 2014 11:10:00 AM UTC-5, philo wrote:
It does settle it. They clearly say that windchill does have an effect
on radiators and "water pipes", causing them to cool faster. Radiators
and water pipes are inanimate objects. Therefore, Gordon's statement:
"Wind chill" has absolutely no effect on inanimate objects."
is clearly wrong. Precisely what I've been saying.
In the scenario at hand, does jacking up the interior heat mean much if
you are worried about a pipe on an outside wall? I am away and have
already jacked the temp from the standard 50 to around 70 (thanks WiFi
thermostat). Any real reason to kick it up further.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.
As the temperature differential increases the movement of heat energy
speeds up. Increasing the inside temp to 70 will allow more heat to
escape into the interior of the wall. Yes, it can help prevent freezing.
12. Does wind chill only apply to people and animals?
Yes. The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects,
such as car radiators and water pipes, is to more quickly
cool the object to cool to the current air temperature.
Object will NOT cool below the actual air temperature.
For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees
Fahrenheit and the wind chill temperature is -31 degrees
Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator will not drop lower
than -5 degrees F.
With people and pets, we want to keep the core temp at
98.6, much cooler than that will result in hypothermia.
Will a low wind chill make for hypothermia faster? I
With water lines, we want to keep at or higher than
32F. Will a low wind chill make for frozen pipes
faster? I guess yes.
It occurrs to me that if we were all having this conversation live and in
real time, within about 15 minutes tops we would all have explained
our qualifiers and lack of precision in language and would likely all
agree with each other about the effect wind has on the rate of tmeperature
change of any object, animate or inaminate.
Better to be stuck up in a tree than tied to one.
Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar.org
On Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:57:44 AM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
Pay particular attention to the fact that just like you, they
contradicted themselves. Anyone can see that:
"Q: Does wind chill only apply to people and animals?
Yes. The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radia
tors and water pipes, is to more quickly cool the object to cool to the cur
rent air temperature. Object will NOT cool below the actual air temperature
. For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees Fahrenheit and the
wind chill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator
will not drop lower than -5 degrees F."
First they say it only applies to people and animals, then
they say windchill does affect radiators and water pipes. Which of course
is exactly what I and other here have been saying. They say it has an
effect. What you said was:
"Wind chill" has absolutely no effect on inanimate objects."
Thanks for proving my point.
reasonable. I'll remember that for the
I've heard that it's wise to have a LOT of
drinking water in the vehicle with you. The
one time I drove through Nebraska, I was really
glad there was other traffic. A town about every
50 miles, that was some wide open space.
On 1/5/2014 9:24 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
I think we are confusing definitions. When the weatherman give wind
chill or "real feel" temperatures he is talking about how exposed human
flesh feels the temperature. Think evaporative cooling.
Drop the word "chill" and I think we can all agree that wind removes
heat faster. There is no evaporative cooling, but faster movement of
heat energy from the object.
No matter how you term things, it does not change the laws of physics. .
"The NWS Windchill Temperature (WCT) index uses advances in science,
technology, and computer modeling to provide an accurate,
understandable, and useful formula for calculating the dangers from
winter winds and freezing temperatures. The index:
•Calculates wind speed at an average height of five feet, typical
height of an adult human face, based on readings from the national
standard height of 33 feet, typical height of an anemometer
•Is based on a human face model
•Incorporates heat transfer theory, heat loss from the body to its
surroundings, during cold and breezy/windy days
•Lowers the calm wind threshold to 3 mph
•Uses a consistent standard for skin tissue resistance
•Assumes no impact from the sun (i.e., clear night sky)."
So the term "windchill" has been "appropriated" by the NWS for
application to human skin.
If you want to use it for pipes in an accurate manner, you need to
specify type of pipe, heat transfer rate, etc.
I'm sure it has been done by engineers who design things where it's
relevent. But they don't call it "windchill."
On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:14:51 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
First, it's not based on "evaporative cooling", at least in the USA.
If it were, then it would need to have a component to reflect
the moisture in the air. Dry air removes more heat than high
humidity air. But windchill here is based on a formula that uses wind
speed and temp alone. Hence, that reported windchill index affects inanimate
objects too. The question was asked in the following context:
"Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind
chill -10 or so. Which number is the one
which concerns water pipes freezing? "
The answer is both of them. At 0F, it's cold enough to freeze
pipes. And depending on where the pipes are, they can be
affected by the windchill. Again, just two examples:
A - Pipes are in a cabin with no heat. Do you think the cabin
inside temp will be the same overnight as the temp drops without
regard to what the windchill is? If the reported windchill was
large, would you not agree that the pipes are going to be
more likely to freeze?
B - Pipes in a drafty crawlspace.
Then why won't Gordon just admit he's wrong, even after his
own reference from NOAA says that inanimate objects can be affected
Again, tell that to Gordon. He's the one that said windchill had
absolutely no effect on inanimate objects and won't just admit that
he's wrong. Apparently you agree he's wrong too.
On 1/6/2014 8:49 AM, email@example.com wrote:
Affected how? The wind may make then freeze a bit faster by removing
heat faster, but regardless of the wind chill number, the pipes will
never see anything below 0 degrees.
No. If the temperature is 35 and the wind chill is 25, the pipes will
not freeze. They will never go below 35F
Best to ask Gordon.
Gets back to definitions. Wind can move heat away faster but inanimate
objects will never feel the "chill" number, only the actual number.
They may get there a bit faster though. NOAA confused things with their
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