Wind chill and water pipes

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On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 05:58:31 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

No, I didn't contradict myself but you just did. "Wind chill" has no effect on an inanimate object. Wind chill is just how cold ambient temperature feels to exposed flesh.
Now can you agree that "how cold it feels to exposed flesh" has no effect on inanimate objects?
The wind (not wind chill) will have an effect on heat transfer.

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On Saturday, January 4, 2014 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:

Well, no shit Sherlock. Apparently windchill does have an effect on an inanimate object.... And let's look at the context, before you try to hijack it into something else. The question that was asked was if wind chill was a consideration in pipes posssibly freezing.
Your answer, which you apparently cling to, is that wind chill has no effect on inanimate objects.
Wrong, as demonstated by physics and my various examples.

BS. Wind chill is an index that indicates how wind and in some cases evaporation, factors in to cooling things. Those "things" could be you or an inaminate object that is above the outside temp.
Are you really saying that a house with no heat, there is no reason to be more concerned on a night when the wind chill is 0F, as opposed to 20F, even if the outside temp is the same? Yes or no?

How it "feels" matters not a wit. The fact that wind chill is directly dependent on wind speed and that it can effect how pipes may freeze in a crawl space, an unheated cabin, etc is fact.

Wrong, because the only component other than temp, of "wind chill" is windspeed, at least in the US.

Non answer noted.....
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On Sat, 4 Jan 2014 11:15:56 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

"Wind chill" has no effect on inanimate objects. Period, if I may quote our fearless leader.

Your various examples are merely demonstrating the effect of wind, not wind chill. Until you can understand the difference there is no further point in this conversation.
If I may paraphrase another of our presidents, It's the wind, stupid.

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On Saturday, January 4, 2014 5:01:22 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:

BS as already proven with the simple examples:
A brick that's 75F when placed outside when it's 20F is going to cool faster with a windchill of 0F, than with a windchill of 15F. A house is going to take more energy to keep it warm on a night when the windchill is 0F, than when the windchill is 20F, even if the outside temp both nights is 20F. That's because windchill has a direct bearing on how heat is removed from any object, without regard to whether it's alive or not.

You only get wind chill if there is wind. Go look at the formula for the USA. The only components are temp and wind speed. Wind chill cools that brick or house cited in the example.
And in the context of the discussion, I'll ask the simple question again. If you have water pipes in a crawlspace that has some vent openings, drafts, etc and it's 20F outside, are those pipes more likely to freeze on a night when the windchill is 0F or when it's 20F?
Until you can understand the difference there is no

Nonsense. Why would windchill only remove heat from things that are alive? Good grief.

If I may paraphrase, you're as dumb as the brick in the example.

Failure to answer the simple, direct question noted. That's a sure sign that you know you're wrong.
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On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 06:24:14 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Here is my last hope at getting you to understand the difference between "Wind" and "Wind Chill."
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/om/windchill/windchillfaq.shtml
Pay particular attention to the frequently asked question number 12.
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On 01/05/2014 09:57 AM, Gordon Shumway wrote:

If point #12 does not settle this argument once and for all, nothing will!
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Oh, no it won't! ;-)
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On Sunday, January 5, 2014 11:10:00 AM UTC-5, philo  wrote:

It does settle it. They clearly say that windchill does have an effect on radiators and "water pipes", causing them to cool faster. Radiators and water pipes are inanimate objects. Therefore, Gordon's statement:
"Wind chill" has absolutely no effect on inanimate objects."
is clearly wrong. Precisely what I've been saying.
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On Sun, 5 Jan 2014 08:42:12 -0800 (PST), " snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net"

Wind, NOT wind chill (two words) has an effect on everything cooling faster.
Wind chill is just a number in a chart!
I'm done.

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In the scenario at hand, does jacking up the interior heat mean much if you are worried about a pipe on an outside wall? I am away and have already jacked the temp from the standard 50 to around 70 (thanks WiFi thermostat). Any real reason to kick it up further.
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On 1/5/2014 12:33 PM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

As the temperature differential increases the movement of heat energy speeds up. Increasing the inside temp to 70 will allow more heat to escape into the interior of the wall. Yes, it can help prevent freezing.
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On 1/5/2014 11:10 AM, philo wrote:

12. Does wind chill only apply to people and animals?
Yes. The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to more quickly cool the object to cool to the current air temperature. Object will NOT cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind chill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5 degrees F. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
With people and pets, we want to keep the core temp at 98.6, much cooler than that will result in hypothermia. Will a low wind chill make for hypothermia faster? I guess yes.
With water lines, we want to keep at or higher than 32F. Will a low wind chill make for frozen pipes faster? I guess yes.
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It occurrs to me that if we were all having this conversation live and in real time, within about 15 minutes tops we would all have explained our qualifiers and lack of precision in language and would likely all agree with each other about the effect wind has on the rate of tmeperature change of any object, animate or inaminate.
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On Sunday, January 5, 2014 10:57:44 AM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:

Pay particular attention to the fact that just like you, they contradicted themselves. Anyone can see that:
"Q: Does wind chill only apply to people and animals?
Yes. The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radia tors and water pipes, is to more quickly cool the object to cool to the cur rent air temperature. Object will NOT cool below the actual air temperature . For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind chill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5 degrees F."
First they say it only applies to people and animals, then they say windchill does affect radiators and water pipes. Which of course is exactly what I and other here have been saying. They say it has an effect. What you said was:
"Wind chill" has absolutely no effect on inanimate objects."
Thanks for proving my point.
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There is another wind chill factor. When I drove in the desert with no air, it was often cooler to keep most windows closed. Your evaporative system can only produce so much sweat.
Greg
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On 1/5/2014 9:29 PM, gregz wrote:

reasonable. I'll remember that for the future.
I've heard that it's wise to have a LOT of drinking water in the vehicle with you. The one time I drove through Nebraska, I was really glad there was other traffic. A town about every 50 miles, that was some wide open space.
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On 1/5/2014 9:24 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I think we are confusing definitions. When the weatherman give wind chill or "real feel" temperatures he is talking about how exposed human flesh feels the temperature. Think evaporative cooling.
Drop the word "chill" and I think we can all agree that wind removes heat faster. There is no evaporative cooling, but faster movement of heat energy from the object.
No matter how you term things, it does not change the laws of physics. .
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Exactly.
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/os/windchill/index.shtml "The NWS Windchill Temperature (WCT) index uses advances in science, technology, and computer modeling to provide an accurate, understandable, and useful formula for calculating the dangers from winter winds and freezing temperatures. The index: •Calculates wind speed at an average height of five feet, typical height of an adult human face, based on readings from the national standard height of 33 feet, typical height of an anemometer •Is based on a human face model •Incorporates heat transfer theory, heat loss from the body to its surroundings, during cold and breezy/windy days •Lowers the calm wind threshold to 3 mph •Uses a consistent standard for skin tissue resistance •Assumes no impact from the sun (i.e., clear night sky)."
So the term "windchill" has been "appropriated" by the NWS for application to human skin. If you want to use it for pipes in an accurate manner, you need to specify type of pipe, heat transfer rate, etc. I'm sure it has been done by engineers who design things where it's relevent. But they don't call it "windchill."
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On Sunday, January 5, 2014 3:14:51 PM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

First, it's not based on "evaporative cooling", at least in the USA. If it were, then it would need to have a component to reflect the moisture in the air. Dry air removes more heat than high humidity air. But windchill here is based on a formula that uses wind speed and temp alone. Hence, that reported windchill index affects inanimate objects too. The question was asked in the following context:
"Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind chill -10 or so. Which number is the one which concerns water pipes freezing? "
The answer is both of them. At 0F, it's cold enough to freeze pipes. And depending on where the pipes are, they can be affected by the windchill. Again, just two examples:
A - Pipes are in a cabin with no heat. Do you think the cabin inside temp will be the same overnight as the temp drops without regard to what the windchill is? If the reported windchill was large, would you not agree that the pipes are going to be more likely to freeze?
B - Pipes in a drafty crawlspace.

Then why won't Gordon just admit he's wrong, even after his own reference from NOAA says that inanimate objects can be affected by windchill?

Again, tell that to Gordon. He's the one that said windchill had absolutely no effect on inanimate objects and won't just admit that he's wrong. Apparently you agree he's wrong too.
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On 1/6/2014 8:49 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

Affected how? The wind may make then freeze a bit faster by removing heat faster, but regardless of the wind chill number, the pipes will never see anything below 0 degrees.

No. If the temperature is 35 and the wind chill is 25, the pipes will not freeze. They will never go below 35F

Best to ask Gordon.

Gets back to definitions. Wind can move heat away faster but inanimate objects will never feel the "chill" number, only the actual number. They may get there a bit faster though. NOAA confused things with their definition. .

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