Wind chill and water pipes

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Tonight in NYS supposed to be 0F, and wind chill -10 or so. Which number is the one which concerns water pipes freezing?
I know the pipes won't get below the actual temp, but are they more likely to freeze, with wind?
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On 01/03/2014 03:11 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

We went through that just a few days ago on the other thread.
Wind chill below freezing will /not/ freeze the pipes
Just as long as the temp. is above 32F they will be fine
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On Friday, January 3, 2014 4:15:45 PM UTC-5, philo  wrote:

But wind can be a component of making it easier for pipes to freeze that are in certain locations, like an exterior wall, a crawl space that has some drafts flowing through it, etc. The same pipe that might not freeze at 15F on a calm night, could freeze on a night with a 20 mph wind.
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That's the correct answer. It all depends on 1) exposure to wind; 2) heat emitted by surrounding walls, machinery, etc.; 3) length of time subjected to the low temperature; 4) diameter of the pipe; 5) amount of water-flow though the pipes; and probably other factors I haven't thought of yet.
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On 1/3/2014 4:15 PM, philo wrote:

You may wish to read my post (above) again, and rewrite your comment in this thread, based on tonight's expected temps.
What you say is true, but it's not really relevant, tonight.
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On 01/03/2014 04:33 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Yep I totally missed "OF" It just plain did not register.
trader4 is quite right
if the pipes are in an uninsulated and not well sealed wall, the more wind there is the more likely it will get in to cool things off
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On 1/3/2014 6:04 PM, philo wrote:

Ah, well. I have my moments of miss things. Anyhow, tonight is the one night of the year I'll be certain to leave a faucet dripping at the farthest place from where the water comes in. Help to avoid frozen pipe, if possible. My line from the curb valve is soft copper, and will not survive a freeze cycle. The lead in line is insulated, and heat taped. Not sure how good are the lines under the trailer. I think they go along the heat run, but not sure.
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On 01/03/2014 05:13 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Yep I'd leave the water running a bit for sure.
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My brother has his trailer fully skirted, and the skirt insulated to minimum R15. The space under the trailer is heated. (pipe from outdoor wood furnace runs length of the trailer to the heat exchanger in the old propane furnace) It was -35 last week, expecting -40 or better.
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At 0F they will freeze regardless
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On 1/3/2014 1:15 PM, philo wrote:

This is a simple thermodynamic process of heat flowing from hot to cold. Wind Chill is a SINGLE number that estimates the effect of wind in ONE particular instance related to typical human behavior...nothing more...it's useless for predicting different situations.
Freezing pipes is a VERY complex problem involving many unspecified variables in the plumbing and structure. And it's not steady state.
The ONLY way to guarantee your pipes won't freeze is to keep the coldest spot above freezing. If you have a very good model of the system, you can use insulation and thermal mass to increase the time to freeze to longer than the below-freezing event.
Beyond that, you have to supply energy. Heat the structure and let some of it leak into the vicinity of the pipes to keep the temperature above freezing. Heat tape directly on the pipes.
Higher temperature water flowing thru the pipes at a rate sufficient to supply more energy than is lost thru the pipes to the cold environment. This is particularly helpful when your system is basically warm, but the pipe passes thru a short uninsulated region. I had a pipe burst in a rental because the idiots ran the pipe right across the attic vent then down to the washer.
A boundary layer forms at the interface providing a small amount of insulation. Air flow can destroy this layer and increase the rate at which heat is lost from a hot pipe into a cold environment. If the wind is howling outside and the pipe is in the middle of the insulated space, the wind is irrelevant...for constant temperatures.
So, what you care about is wind speed and how much of that actually affects the pipes in your exact configuration.
The wind chill number on the TV screen is related to the effect, but misses most of the variables for pipes. You can say that lower wind chill number is worse, but you can't say much about how much worse.
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On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 16:11:35 -0500, Stormin Mormon

Wind chill is the effect the combination of cold air and wind has on exposed flesh relative to only cold air. "Wind chill" has absolutely no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no wind. It is impossible to get an inanimate object colder than ambient temperature by using wind that is also ambient temperature.
Now, don't ever ask that question again or I'll turn this car around...
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On 01/03/2014 05:21 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:

That's absolutely correct but trader4 made a valid point.
Air in a wall would be warmed by the house and if no outside air got in would act to keep the pipe warm. With a strong wind blowing, any warm air trapped in the wall would be dissipated pretty fast.
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What I said is completely true, period. What the temperature in the wall that contains the plumbing is, or will become, whether it's insulated well or not at all, is the ambient temperature, period.
Granted, plumbing in an outside wall that is poorly insulated will have a greater chance of freezing at a given outside temperature when it's windy than not but that's what was contained in my statement.
Damn it, I WILL turn this car around! I'm not kidding.
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On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 18:47:37 -0600, Gordon Shumway

Just don't do 100mph in a 60mph zone. Remember - it will be ZERO F - not ZERO C.
If the ambient temperature gets to the pipes they WILL freeze.
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On Fri, 03 Jan 2014 20:20:36 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Huh?

Umm... technically, the temperature where ever the pipes are IS the ambient temperature for that portion of the pipe.
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On 1/3/2014 7:47 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:

Yep, better leave a faucet dripping, tonight. Thank you, that's great common sense.
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In the past, it's been cold (colder) where you live in. Have you always left a faucet dripping? Have ever had a frozen pipe?
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On 1/4/2014 7:25 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

When it gets down below 10 or so, I do try and remember to leave a faucet drip. So far, not had any frozen pipes.
I'm not eager to reverse the experiment, close the faucet and see if they freeze.
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On Friday, January 3, 2014 7:47:37 PM UTC-5, Gordon Shumway wrote:
ote:


Actually you contradicted yourself:
" "Wind chill" has absolutely no effect on inanimate objects. The wind on an inanimate object will cool an inanimate object to the ambient temperature quicker than no wind."
Wind chill is a measure of the how wind causes people to feel colder. It also has a similar effect on cooling inanimate objects that are warmer than ambient. Therefore it can have an effect on objects that are warmer than ambient.
Will a pail of water at 75F freeze faster if you put it outside where it's exposed when it's 20F with a windchill of 17F or a winchill of 5F?
What the temperature in the

Only if you define ambient temperature as the temperature at the pipe. If by ambient you mean the outside temperature, then the temperature in the wall is likely to be lower with a wind blowing on it than without.

Wind is a component of wind chill. Would you not be more concerned about pipes freezing on a day when the wind chill is 0F than when it was 17F, even if the outside temp both days was 20F?
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