On 01/01/2016 06:25 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Don't be so quick to laugh:
Any bee with the wrong chip, or no chip, will be droned forthwith.
| Seems to me that raw honey, which is honey right out of the
| hive, should be *cheaper* than filtered honey, which is honey
| that has been post processed.
| But, pricing is the other way around.
You didn't mention anything about brands or
source, but there are two possible issues I know
of: There's been an ongoing scandal in recent
years with 1) Chinese honey being adulterated
with heavy metals and 2) honey being thinned
out with sugar syrup. With the very highly refined
stuff it's very difficult to tell where it's from or
whether it's been thinned, because there's very
little left other than sugar and water.
So it makes sense that raw honey, from an
accountable source (both in terms of flowers
and location) would be more expensive than
dubious, refined sugar syrup packaged by big
distributors like Sue Bee or the other companies
that sell pale, refined honey in cute, plastic
"bear" bottles, because that honey might very
well be Chinese honey rejected by other countries
and/or watered down product.
If you want to research you can look up terms
like "chinese honey scandal".
I expect to harvest some honey from my hives next summer . This will be
mainly wildflower plus whatever else is blooming and producing nectar out
in the woods - there is no commercial ag withing their foraging range . The
price will be around $20 per pint plus shipping ...
I will post availibility when I harvest - probably in midsummer . This
will be raw honey filtered thru cheesecloth .
On Fri, 01 Jan 2016 16:30:03 -0600, Terry Coombs wrote:
You may know the answer to another question I have about this honey:
What do those strange hieroglyphic symbols mean?
There is no word "organic" on it, nor any "USDA" symbol.
But, there is a big "D" with a small "k" inside of it with "pareve" below that.
Similarly, my Costco "Kirkland" Maple Syrup has strange markings too!
It has a big "U" with a circle around it and it says "USDA/Organic"
Notice that NONE of the symbols are common between the raw unfiltered honey
and the pure right-from-the-tree maple syrup.
You'd think they'd have common symbols since they are both presumably
pure products - but the symbols are totally different.
Anyone know what they mean?
You'll be happy to know your honey is kosher. Probably halal too if
you're a Muslim. Pareve means it's neither fleishig (meat) or milchig
(dairy) so it can be used sweeten your tea with milk or make a sauce for
your ribs (beef, of course)
You might not be so happy to know the price you paid for the honey
includes the fee charged by one of the kosher concerns to certify the
company isn't lubricating the extractor with lard or something.
Yes, the big D with the k inside is Dallas Kosher.
And the OU is the OU.
Why do you say something like this? The cost of inspecting a honey
facility is probably less than a penny a bottle. It's nothing like
meat where inspection has to be continuous and adds, with the other
requirements for kosher meat, several dollars a pound to the cost of
For a product like honey, especially since it has only one ingredient,
the inspector would only have to visit once or twice a year for a
couple hours, if that much. The first time, they'd show him around
the plant, he'd learn how honey was bottled there, he'd see that there
are no other ingredients (He'd probably already have learned that
before his first visit.), maybe they'd have a little tea with honey ,
and he'd be done. After that, it would take even less time for the
Unflavored honey, as this product is, wouldn't even require inspection
except that it's heated (what difference that makes, I'm not sure) and
this company probaby solicited the inspection in order to increase
sales, which they wouldn't do if the price went up much.
NORTH DALLAS HONEY/NATURE NATE'S
6573 County Road 124
McKinney, TX 75071
With offices in Frisco, TX North Dallas Honey Company has
been providing local, raw and unfiltered honey for you and your family
since 1972. They have partnered with North Texas beekeepers to
provide top-quality, local raw honey. Their Texas honey is gently
warmed and strained through cheesecloth to remove the "bee knees,"
leaving the enzymes and the antioxidants of the honey. For constancy,
they blend a variety of honeys from honey-producing plants, including
clover, vetch, wildflower, and mesquite.
This refers to all their products and not especially the one in
On 01/01/2016 06:34 PM, email@example.com wrote:
Why should I pay even a penny to support some religious organization?
Will the Muslims be the next to see a nice scam in having a cresent M or
something on every container? I'm not interested in whether my honey,
coffee, salmon, or myriad other products are kosher or not.
Unfortunately it's out of my hands if producers want to cater to 2% or
less of the US population.
The USA seems to be turning into a minocracy. Some
group or other wants raw honey, and the world caters
to the interests of the minority. I don't see us
majority types being able to do anything about it.
So don't. You won't be missed. But your unwillingness to spend a
penny on a religious organization, or a Jewish organization, is no
excuse for trying to give others the impression it costs more than it
does. I wouldn't be annoyed except that antisemites do this too,
specifically to create hostility towards Jews.
No, it's not a scam. Jews who keep kosher want an independent
inspection of the processed food they might buy, both because of
honest mistakes the producer can make, negligence, and even fraud.
(I'll bet in a different context, you wouldn't be very trusting of
corporate food makers.) For meat, poultry, bread, and wine,
inspection predates the USA's FDA by hundreds or probably thousands of
When all the food Jews ate was made in their own kitchens or by people
they knew, then there was still local inspection of what's listed
above. But canning begain in the 1800's and by the 1920's and much
more so after WWII, national food brands and then prepared foods came
onto the market, and some of them sought out kosher inspection so they
could sell to a wider customer base.
BTW, my great-grandfather raised honey. About once a week, he'd take
some to the market to sell. It wasn't flavored and afaik didn't need
inspection, and in the small town he lived in, probably everyone knew
him and that he and his family kept kosher.
So? Most people aren't.
But you'll whine about it and try to mislead people as to how much it
And it's not just Jews who prefer to buy kosher food. These food
makers know what they're doing when they solicit certification.
| Why should I pay even a penny to support some religious organization?
I don't think it usually works out that way. If you
buy a bottle of honey marked "pareve" it's probably
$3.99... or $5.79... or something like that. The non-
marked bottle is not going to be $5.78. You're not
*really* paying for the mark.
On the other hand, declaring purity or blessedness
*has* always been one of the central rackets of
religious establishments. Buying blessings is well
established in the Catholic church, for instance. As
with plumbers, priests can drive the price up by
controlling the number of licensed blessers. Kosher
law can also serve as a form of protection racket
for the people who don't dare allow the proverbial
black cat of treif [non-kosher food] to cross their
Given that sort of thing, maybe you feel strongly that
religion is destructive, like the "new atheists" who think
scientific materialism will save us and that religion has
caused all wars? In that case I could see why you
wouldn't want to risk supporting religion mongerers.
Personally I find that view to be a particularly
naive and simplistic brand of homemade religion. If we
reject religion then aren't we practicing the same
approach of taking sides against an "other" that
religion is faulted for?
Modern technophiles are hoping to save their necks by
cheering for the right team, just like some religious people
are. In that sense science becomes another superstition.
The most notable difference is that the science followers
aim low. Religious people often hope to know God and view
their lives as being dedicated to that work. Science
followers hope only to extend their lives and discover
a more delicious flavorant to put on popcorn. They
accept a simplistic, concretist view of reality and
essentially subscribe to the irrational view that whoever
dies with the most toys, and pleasurable experiences,
wins. The great danger with science followers is that
they fervently believe themselves to be immune to irrational
belief. (There are an awfully lot of people who say
they believe that when they die, that's it. They are their
body. Their soul or thoughts are mere chemical reactions.
There is no meaning. We're just vehicles for DNA to
reproduce itself, floating around on a rock in the universe.
Yet those same people spend a fortune to pick their funeral
trappings and gravestone. When we see such fancy caskets
used by ancient Egyptians we say the silly fools thought
they were taking their worldly comforts to an afterlife.
But us? No. We're rationalists. We just like a good casket. :)
I buy kosher salt. I like the big flakes. It sprinkles
better. My other requirement with salt is that it
not contain additives of aluminum, cyanide, or any
other idiotic thing that someone thought would be
clever to include. Interestingly, kosher doesn't seem
to necessarily mean without toxins, in this case. It
just means the flakes are big.
On Fri, 01 Jan 2016 15:56:46 -0500, Mayayana wrote:
I know a little about the Chinese scandal, but only enough to be
I may be placing my trust in the wrong company, but, I sort of
trust Costco that they're not selling Chinese honey.
I'm only comparing the Costco "Clover" filtered honey with the
Costco Nature Nates raw honey (which is twice the price per ounce).
Of the Chinese scandal, I only know half the story, which is that
without the pollens in filtered honey, they can't tell where it
But the other half of the story is what's wrong with the Chinese
filtered honey versus the Costco filtered honey? I don't know.
| I may be placing my trust in the wrong company, but, I sort of
| trust Costco that they're not selling Chinese honey.
Why would you trust that? If it's highly refined
honey then even if Costco is honest they have no
way of confirming the source. Since it's store
brand it's likely that they buy it from a big wholesale
distributor, which may very well deal in tanker ships
that arrive and pump their stock into giant holding
tanks, to then be sold by the tanker-truck-load to
retailers or brand name honey packagers. That's the
problem with store brand. It's also an increasing
problem with international commerce.
I saw something
recently about olive oil scams, and junk olive oil being
shipped through Greece just so it could get a Greek
label. I saw another article about how much fish sold is
not the fish they say it is. A scientist was testing the
DNA. One case was a fish sandwich shack in Florida
with a sign saying the fish was local. The fish sandwiches
turned out to be fresh water giant catfish from Vietnam.
(Agent orange, anyone?) When asked about the sign
saying the fish was local, the proprietor said something
like, "It is local. I buy it from the guy up the street."
If you want to trust there needs to be some basis
for that. If you buy Ed's wildflower honey from Ed's
Honey Farm in Elmira, NY, and Ed provides a way to
contact him, as well as a website, then you *might*
be able to trust Ed. If Costco deserved your trust
they'd know about the honey they sell, they'd tell you,
and they'd make sure the honey producer was clearly
credited on the label. The fact that it's store brand
indicates that the producer is not taking responsibility
*and* that Costco is confident you don't care about
Sorry, I can't see images on that site.
| But the other half of the story is what's wrong with the Chinese
| filtered honey versus the Costco filtered honey? I don't know.
It might be watered down. It might contain toxins.
And the Costco honey might be the Chinese honey.
Personally I'd assume it *is*. they target people looking
for bargains who don't ask questions when they have the
proverbial 50% off stereos that fell off the back of a
truck. That's the perfect venue for Chinese honey. The
only question would be how many laundering levels would
Costco want in place in order to accept it. As noted above,
I would guess that they very well may have no way of
knowing exactly what their direct supplier is selling.
IMO, At the best the honey could come from bee keeper co-op.
I never buy honey from store. I personally buy from independent
small operation bee keeper who usually started out as amateur,
ended up producing more honey, not enough to commercialize but can
share with some folks. Concern for any Chinese food stuff is purity
free of heavy metal and PCB or other contaminants.
Korea imports lot of them from China, one story, they mixed in lead
pellets into bulk dried hot pepper since it is sold by the weight. In
Korean market any thing from China is less expensive.
Local honey will contain local pollen in miniscule amounts . This can
desenzitize SOME people - and AFAK you can't filter it out . By law honey
can contain no more that 16.5% (I think that's the number) water , more than
that and the honey can ferment . A good thing if you're making mead , but
for other uses not so much .
There has been so much said here about unfiltered honey not being "raw"
honey . That's not the criterion . Raw honey , just like raw milk , has not
been pasteurized . Heating honey to the temps used to pasteurize it destroys
all the microorganisms that give honey it's "medicinal" properties . IMO the
only use for pasteurized honey is for children under a year old , because
occasionally botulinim spores occcur in it and can make the wee ones sick .
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