Spreadsheet of KWH versus Gasoline Cost for 22 Electric and Plug-In Hybrid Cars

[Stormin Mormon]

Sorry; two years. I figure car batteries last me about four, and these are unproven technology.

[trader_4]

As usual, you can't do basic math. All you've told us is that the rates are being set artificially high by govt. Now think about it. There is a huge, about 2X difference in revenue coming in and it's got to be going somewhere. And if they are using it to chase economically unviable energy sources, which even you apparently acknowledge, that is indeed chasing moon beams and saving the whales. Capiche?

The basic rate is about USD0.15/kwh for the

So, again, the libs are artificially jacking up rates and screwing the consumer, big time. And where is all that money going? How much punishment to the citizens is enough? Have you libs no compassion for the poor? I guess you like to screw them with one big hand, keep them down and out, then pretend to help them with the other hand, by making them dependent on govt and you libs for assistance.

This stupidity is like the US screwing our economy, our citizens, our jobs, by placing huge costs on the economy over CO2, while India and China do as they please. It's like pissing in the wind. In this case, you libs must feel wonderful, pretending to save the environment, while in almost every other state, we're enjoying electric at half the rates or less, and what you're doing makes no difference in the grand scheme.

[trader_4]

Two points. One is that a tax on nukes to pay for long term storage of waste is very different than govt artificially screwing with and setting market prices for energy. The second is, we had exactly that. A tax on nukes to pay for the long term storage. It went on for years, until a court ruled a couple years ago that it was illegal, since the tax was to fund the nuclear waste storage. You libs killed that project in Nevada after billions had already been spent on it and it was half completed. So, now nuclear waste is piling up at storage pools at facilities all over the country, instead of being at a highly secure, safe area. The tax is no longer being collected. Feel better?

[trader_4]

Only about 20% is from nuclear. Even less in just a couple years. The environmentalists succeeded in getting one to shut down.

Our power does too, mostly from coal.

That's interesting, because as I said, just a few years ago, I was paying ~17c. That chart says 16c. I was surprised that the last couple times I calculated, it was down to 12.5c. Part of what may be going on here is that NJ has several power companies. I may be lucky and have one that is lower than others.

[Percival P. Cassidy]

I heard just a couple of days ago that many first-generation Toyota Priuses are still running on their original (NiMH) batteries. How many years is that? Seventeen, I think. And even if they don't last *that* long, the batteries are guaranteed for eight years or 100,000 miles.

Perce

[trader_4]

8 yrs, 100K isn't very reassuring. That's cool for spark plugs that cost $50, not for a battery that can cost two orders of magnitude more. And you would think used car buyers are going to factor an expensive battery replacement into the price.

In some cases, the car doesn't even have to be old. Tesla cars, if the battery ever goes to zero, it's bricked and you need a new one. New ones cost ~$30K.

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Stormin Mormon:

My experience fooling around with an eBike is that the life of a lithium battery is expressed in number of charges.... sort of.

"Sort of" because I am still not clear whether 10 total discharges/charges has the same effect on battery life as 20 half discharges/charges....

But the idea is still that shelf/calendar life is pretty much irrelevant: instead it's the amount of energy you run through the things.

[nestork]

Here in Manitoba we have a publicly owned power utility (Manitoba Hydro) that provides both electricity and natural gas to Manitobans. I pay

6.83 cents per KWH, so you'd think electric vehicles would be popular here, but they're not.

Electric vehicles are only feasible to use in the summer here because of all of the need for heat in the vehicle during the winter. Gasoline powered cars have interior heaters that use the heat from the engine to warm the inside of the car to keep the front windshield free of fog. An electric car doesn't have excess heat that could be used to warm up the inside of the car to keep the front and rear windshields free of fog. That would require electric heaters which would severely reducing the range of the car.

The bottom line is that electric cars would work well in cities with warm climates year round. As soon as you start expecting electric cars to work well in cold climates, the range of the car drops substantially.

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

there is no such thing as a Highly Secure Area for nuke waste. the waste will have to be stored for tens of thousands of years and we can't even read with certainty writings that are 5 thousand years old. "Oh look daddy, that yellow sign is inviting us in to play with those old rocks"

but I'll play the game: users of electric cars should be charged less because they make more oil available at lower costs for those that insist on petro cars

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

the CPUC doesn't set rates, the power companies do. the CPUC has been successful in lowering energy consumption to the point that with a population larger than Texas it uses less electricity and no one is being sent to the poor house

no, the libs have reduced energy consumption and therefore improved the financial ability of the "poor"

rates might be lower, but bills aren't. you poor conservatives who feel you have to have 150 incandescent bulbs can have them and one day your CO2 rich power plant will run out of coal

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

then people will start using more daytime electricity, like PVs

[Ralph Mowery]

In the warm climates Air condition is needed (wanted). So that eats up more power. Could the air/heater be made like a heat pump and be reversed ? I doubt it will heat up quick enough, but don't know.

[trader_4]

Baloney.

"PG&E typically changes its electric rates two to three times a year and it s natural gas rates every month to reflect changing revenues needs. Wheneve r PG&E needs to make significant rate changes, it makes a proposal to the C alifornia Public Utilities Commission (CPUC). PG&E's proposal is then revie wed in a public hearing process along with many stakeholder groups represen ting consumer, business, low-income, environmental, and agricultural intere sts among others. After this considerable review process, the CPUC then mak es a decision on what is just and reasonable for customers to pay in rates after which PG&E reflects any change in rates as soon as possible."

And more importantly, it's the govt that has imposed all kinds of mandates on utilities. For example, govt tells them that they must get X% of their energy supply from "green" sources. If you believe in moonbeams, as you libs usually do, then that doesn't matter. To the rest of us, in the real world, we know it drives up the cost of energy.

Baloney. Everyone is paying more for the energy they are actually using. At 32c a kwh your usage would have to go down by a factor of

2.5 to be in the range of average rates. You think the poor have magically cut their energy usage by a factor of 2.5? That anyone, other than you moonbeam folks that spend $50K for a solar system have? Good grief, you libs lie.

Rates are lower, idiot. I'm paying 13c a kwh, not the jacked up lib rate of 32c in CA.

[trader_4]

That's right, because you libs and tree huggers forced a halt in contruction when it was half built, after billions had already been spent on it. Instead of all that nuclear waste being secured hundreds of feet inside a remote mountain with highly armed security, it's sitting in water pools that are beyond capacity at your local nuclear power plant, guarded by Barney Fife.

the waste

I see. So, on the one hand, you libs are telling us that for sure the whole planet will be wrecked within just a few more decades due to CO2, with catastrophic, irreversible consequences that will kill millions . But we shouldn't use nuclear power, which is a quick, sure way to reduce CO2, because 5,000 years from now, some of the waste at Yucca Mountain *might* escape. Makes as much sense as most of the rest of the screwed up lib agenda.

[trader_4]

Calculate the size of the solar array that it takes to put a 100 mile charge into a car in 8 hours and get back to us. And what happens when it's a dark, cloudy, day?

[trader_4]

Ask and you shall receive:

[Ralph Mowery]

OK on the heat pump for cars. I have not looked at the electric cars as I don't think they would work for my driving. When I was working, the range of the cars was about 50 miles and I lived about 20 miles from work. I just did not like the narrow ammount of left over milage as I might want to go somewhere after work. Also my son lived just out of range for the car.

I thought if the electric cars had air conditioning they might be able to use a heat pump system for heat as the motor would not have the wasted heat like a gas powered car. I just did not know if they would heat one quick enough.

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

it's irrelevant. many households and businesses will install panels for the tax write-off and all that PV juice will flow into the grid

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

and you actually think that Barney Fife won't be the guard guarding these Highly Secure Areas...as I recall the conservative mantra is that business can do it best, so why isn't business finishing Yucca Mountain? but if they do, you can bet they will pay the lowest possible wages to their Mayberrys

if it makes so much sense, let the businesses that benefit from the Nukes build their own nuclear waste repository. if nukes are so safe, why would the industry need a special law to limit their liability?

[Malcom "Mal" Reynolds]

thank you for proving my point. the CPUC doesn't set rates, it just determines what crap PGE is trying to get money for...PGE did such a good job with the money it had been charging for pipeline maintenance that I'm sure the CPUC will gladly allow them to raise the rates for more of the same

and all those mandates have not caused any blackouts. in fact the last time there were blackouts in California it was due to the efforts of utilities to get the gov't to deregulate rates and voila we had Enron

California uses 50% less energy per capita than the national average, in fact it uses approximately 25% of the energy of the biggest user Wyoming. I guess it pays to be a conservative

ml

damn, I'm paying between 8 and 11 cents depending on time of year, those damn jacked down conservative rates sound sooooooooooooo appealing

just out of curiosity how may KWH's do you use? my bill this month was $25 and that includes a $14 fixed infrastructure charge...and I wasn't hurting for any conveniences

r-rates.htm