Speaking of broken spark plugs...

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http://www.verrill.com/moto/sellingguide/sparkplugs/plugcolorchart.htm
Couple of real skanks in there too.
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wrote:

Unless you're primarily interested in adding a room, or perhaps replacing a toilet, this doesn't belong in a.h.r., even if you live in the car. Try rec.autos.tech.
If the mechanic is competant, he can find out if the problem is major without doing any dissassembly at all. There's probably no way he can damage it worse than has already occured and the problem might just be the bearings of an accessory. If the mechanic is unwilling to start the car then find another.
It is insane to write off the car without even starting it again and listening for where the noise is coming from.
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wrote:

Joe: Next time post cool devastation pics and you won't get your ass reamed :-)

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On Tue, 08 Dec 2009 11:28:52 -0600, Red Green wrote:

Mmmm, engine devastation... :-)
Fond memories here of an old friend buying a vehicle once where it was obvious that the engine was about to go (it was dirt-cheap, and he had an engine already lined up for us to drop in). Sounded like a clothes dryer full of bricks when it ran. It was about 5 miles to the house, so the decision to risk driving it back was made. He kept the revs low, tried not to stress it too much, and amazingly it got to about 50ft from the house when the engine went bang - a *loud* bang, too. Managed to coast it right up into the driveway... and then we had to go back along the road and clean up the trail of engine parts.
Near as we could tell from the wreckage it was an oilway to a main bearing that had originally blocked; the loud knocking sound it was making (which was the point when the previous owners parked it up on their driveway) was the crank bouncing around after the bearing shells had started to disintegrate due to lack of oil. When it let go completely, the (alloy) sump was demolished when one of the big ends exited the bottom of the engine, whilst the corresponding piston went upwards and high speed and completely trashed the head.
A picture's worth a thousand words, and I really wish I'd taken photos at the time :-(
cheers
Jules
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wrote:

I see a reality show in the making. :-)
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wrote:

Yeah - that's why when my son had two web pages full of plugs in front of him, trying to decide which ones were the prettiest, I said "Go to the Toyota dealer. Go to the Toyota dealer. Go to the Toyota dealer. Go to the Toyota dealer." He did. He's happy.
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OK - so now that we've established that there's a broken spark plug (assuming the mechanic's telling the truth), what are the various levels of horror which could result from further diagnosis?
Valve wrecked?
Valve seat(s) wrecked?
Piston damaged? Top? Sides? Don't ask, it's too scary?
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wrote:

Worst case is something like:
The timing belt/chain is worn and skipped a tooth (just fixing this could be a few hundred). This caused the pistons to hit the valves, damaging the valves, a spark plug, head, pistons and possibly even rods. Broken bits of valve and/or spark plug gouged the cylinder walls.
Or, you could just have a bit of broken spark plug bounding around in there and running it for a few seconds with that plug out will clear it out.
Somewhere in between those two...
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On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:04:40 -0800 (PST), Larry Fishel

How would slipped timing cause the piston to hit anything? Never heard of such a thing.
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Oren wrote:

Just consider basic mechanical engine timing. If the engine is an interference design (common on many higher performance and import vehicles) the pistons can definitely collide with the valves if basic mechanical timing is lost (eg, timing belt stretches and jumps a tooth).
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wrote:

Them dang ferrin cars. I didn't think about them. Thanks. Learned something new.
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Oren wrote: ...

Pretty high percentage of any current production engine will be same. Need the tolerances to meet emission and mileage requirements any more...
And you definitely don't want to break a timing belt in anything these days--pretty much guarantees new/rebuilt time...the one-cylinder thingie may be a "get-by" or top-end job, the other is they're all toast.
--
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-snip-
If by 'ferrin' you mean GM or Ford- then OK. Both have engines that can cause pistons and valves to collide if the timing belt slips.
Jim
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wrote:

I knew I was in trouble the FIRST time I needed a metric wrench on a Ford. Those were the days :-/
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wrote:

My wife had the timing belt let go on her 1998 Toyota Rav4 while powering up a steep hill. The engine simply stopped. No big bang, or anything. The entire repair consisted of installation of a new belt and idler assembly. No collateral damage.
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snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote:

Most higher performance engines are "interference" designs and do not suffer failures so gracefully. A high compression ratio and the ability to break a timing belt without crashing valves are mutually exclusive.
nate
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replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
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wrote:

My point is that many cars that you would EXPECT to have issues, do not. I also had the fiber timing gear on my 1969 Pontiac Firebird 400 HO convertible fail under hard acceleration. It quietly coasted to a stop. No damage other than the gear. That was a a high compression, high performance engine from prehistoric times that seems to also defy your generalization.
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snipped-for-privacy@dog.com wrote: ...

Depends entirely on what you're using to create the expectations from...compression and a specific definition of "high performance" that epitomized the muscle-car era aren't the appropriate ones. Those were not "interference" engine designs; in fact virtually all were very conventional old pushrod designs w/ simply beefed up compression and high cfm carb's that sucked gasoline at a prodigious rate to generate those hp. (Since had '69 Charger, know the symptoms well... :) )
--


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Well,certain models of the 283/207/237/305/350 SBC engines could ALL bend valves if the valve timing was off. Bent a lot of push-rods too!!!!
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snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote: ...

Yeah, realized I typed before engaging there...the symptoms can end up similar, just the mechanism of "how" is different. Fortunately, the old timing chains gave more warning than the belts do by being noisy when they stretched if one paid attention...
The dang CRX was told it had had a new timing belt before I bought it--turned out they lied... :(
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