Shocked!

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On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:05:45 AM UTC-4, bud-- wrote:

Yes and note who provided it, me not Wes.

In the quote he listed the circuit box as one place to look for a ground wire connected to a water pipe. That would include a wire connected from the panel to the water pipe as an earthing electrode. OP goes looking around the panel, sees it, and per the statement made thinks "Oh, that's no longer code" Or OP goes looking sees the wire from the panel clamped to the metal water pipes of the house and thinks "Oh, that's no longer code". As we agree, both are current code.

Agreed, he was wrong on that point too.
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On 10/30/2013 11:13 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

That's kind of what I envision may have happened assuming the OP has an old house, combined with a poor ground for the water pipes and an appliance with a shorted current carrying conductor to case ground.
I kinda wish he'd check back in and let us know what he found, because it's an interesting problem (in a scary sort of way) and would be nice to see who guessed right.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
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On 10/30/2013 9:13 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

I did notice. It really helps to have the relevant source quoted.

Might. My service is connected to the water pipe within 5 ft of its entrance. There was an old water pipe connection for a telephone entry protector that was nowhere near the water pipe entry. But it was near the service panel.

I think it mostly supports the quote above. Around here there probably aren't many connections within 5 ft of the water pipe entrance other than power grounding electrode connections. It was common practice (and code compliant then) to connect the telephone entry protector to the nearest water pipe. I think a lot of the early cable installs also hit the nearest water pipe.
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Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't expect to find the Spanish Inquisition nor was I writing for a peer-reviewed scientific journal. I was specifically thinking of what the Verizon installer did when I got my last copper POTS line installed on the second floor on the side of the house not near the service entrance (they really balked at doing that, BTW, saying they don't like to "box" installations like that - my other phone lines enter at the same side that the power lines do).
He said he had to run a ground wire from the network interface box all the way back to the circuit panel and had to test to make sure he was hooking into a valid ground. Clamping a ground wire to a nearby water pipe was no longer considered code for new work, at least according to him. I have to assume he knows what's up to code and what's not when installing a new phone line since it does it several times a day.
The considerable noise and harping surrounding my comments are just NDBF because the OP apparently wouldn't know or care about the finer points of the NEC. It's pretty clear this is a case of someone acting like the Wicked Witch of the West and thinking "I'll get that Bobby Green and his little dog Toto if it's the last thing I ever do!" (-: It makes it clear to me who's interesting in solving the OP's problem and who's interesting in scoring points in some game of canis mas macho. Yes, it's important to be absolutely correct but at some point, it's counterproductive to helping the OP with his problems which in this case was not to be electrocuted.
The most important reason for suggesting that the OP look for grounding clamps on the pipe was because it was non-destructive, non-lethal, required no special skills or tools and could be done with the power shut off. If there was a device that had failed and was energizing the line, being able to quickly show the electrician the location of possible suspect connections might have saved some time. Considering some of the other advice given, it seems especially suspect to become obsessed over what apparently was quite clear to you.
If the pipes are not providing a continuous ground path, a grounding clamp on a section of isolated pipe could indeed be the source of the current if the equipment it's connected to has failed. Of course, since this was apparently a cowardly troll post to begin with, we'll never know any real details. Too bad.
--
Bobby G.



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On 11-11-2013, 20:37, Robert Green wrote:

Two guys speculate it might be a troll, and then the OP says "Happy Halloween" on Halloween Day, and that proves the speculation was correct?
--
Wes Groleau

“In the field of language teaching, Method A is the logical
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Happy Veterans Day!
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On 11-11-2013, 22:31, DerbyDad03 wrote:

OK, now I know it's a troll! :-)
--
W. Wesley Groleau, Sonar Technician First Class

There ain't no right wing,
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Dave Mason says "Leave it alone."
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has no record of posting *anywhere* else on Google that I could find. He never provided any meaningful follow-up on the resolution of his problem, other than to vaguely say there was a fire and an investigation but with no real details. That all adds up to be highly suspicious.
Then there's his cryptic writing simply "Happy Halloween" instead of providing clear details of the problem's resolution that so many helpful contributors were waiting to hear. That paints a pretty clear picture of the typical juvenile troll/sock puppet that enjoys making people worry about his safety while he's wasting their time. Too cowardly to admit to his trollery, too? That fits a well-known profile here.
Search with the name of our favorite self-confessed "entertainment troll" and you'll find the name Fred, too, oddly enough. All these little clues add up. Most Usenet groups are suffering very serious attrition yet we have new faces cropping up daily that seem to know way too much about the group members to really be new to AHR. They tend to appear to make "me too!" posts of support when someone's losing an argument and then are never or rarely heard from again. Except for yet another "me too" post.
I was moderating one of the world's largest BBS systems long before the Internet. "Fred" fits a very common profile of an emotionally retarded person that enjoys making trouble - the class clown - too stupid to learn and mean enough to make sure others can't learn, either.
Most importantly, year after year helpful posters like Han just disappear after being barraged by trolls and sock puppets. The BS that trolling "don't hurt nobody" is just crap pushed out by trollers trying to justify their own sad existence. They nym shift *because* they want to screw things up, bother people, cause arguments and do the things that the sociopathic enjoy doing.
Despite the BS they sling, the don't just want the freedom to express themselves. They want to mess things up for others because they feel society has screwed them over and now they want to screw society back. Most of them appear to be abject failures in the game of life, always whining because someone *else* did something to them that caused them to be wastrels. They rarely, if ever, take responsibility for anything they do.
Couple all that to the absolute onslaught of troll postings from the baseball bat moron and many others here and there's what I would call a preponderance of evidence that this was yet another immature moron thinking it's a fun idea to make people believe someone's in mortal peril. Think of a normal posting of a problem like this and how much give and take there *usually* is from the OP that's absent here.
The unmoderated Usenet attracts socially dysfunctional people in the same way that the weak central government in Somalia attracts pirates, hijackers and terrorists. Trolling is the low-voltage equivalent of hijacking - taking something with a defined and useful purpose like a home repair group and subverting it to satisfy the miscreant's pitiful personal, political or emotional gain. These trolls have likely been kicked out from other venues repeatedly and now they're taking their vengeance.
Worse, still, we're infested with nym-shifting trolls who resort to fake ID's like Fred because they know that most intelligent people who are actually interested in discussing home repair have twit-listed them. These poor, socially maladroit infants are *so* starved for attention and recognition that they will do whatever it takes to get their fix. And they'll do it over and over again because that coincides with their juvenile and monomaniacal personality defects. They are unable to distinguish, as Justice Potter Stewart once said, between what they have a right to do and what is right to do.
Every one of them knows they couldn't exist for more than a few infantile posts in a moderated group and so they flock here like pirates to Somalia. Unmoderated Usenet is the refuge of last resorts for cowards, scoundrels and people who have nothing particularly meaningful to say, but demand to be heard anyway. Unmoderated Usenet depends on the honor principle and it's *very* clear that some people have no honor whatsoever. Just infantile bile they feel compelled to puke up on anyone within range.
There's an important difference between the normal, acceptable off-topic chatter that arises in every discussion group and a determined, relentless effort to pollute the group with off-topic nonsense and flame-bait day after day. Trolls try to exploit that diiference by claiming they're part of normal thread drift but even a casual inspection of the day's postings puts the lie to that contention.
They lie (their normal state of existence, apparently) and say "you can filter us out" but then turn around and create sock puppets so they can bypass those filters because their sickness demands that they be at the center of attention. Always. Can you imagine a life so meaningless that you have to give it some sort of purpose by being a deliberate a$$hole? My wife implores me to pity them but I say I don't have much pity for morons who like to pee in the public pool.
I admire your faith in the goodness of your fellow man, Wes, but in this instance I think it may be misplaced. If I am ever on trial for a crime, I want *you* on the jury. (-:
--
Bobby G.




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On 11-13-2013, 09:05, Robert Green wrote:

Ha! I have very little faith in the "goodness" (nor the intelligence) of humanity in general. But I do have a lot more respect than most for the principle of "beyond all reasonable doubt."
--
Wes Groleau

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
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That's the standard for a criminal conviction -- beyond a reasonable doubt.
The standard in a civil litigation matter is a preponderance of the evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt.
But, this is neither a criminal case nor a civil litigation matter.
My personal opinion, based on all that the OP posted, is that it appears to me that the OP made the whole thing up for whatever reasons. Your personal opinion appears to be that there is no "proof" either way that this was or was not a made up story posted by the OP.
The two are not mutually exclusive. Yes, it's true that my personal opinion is that the whole thing was a made-up story posted by the OP. And, yes, it's true that there is no "proof" (and certainly not "beyond a reasonable doubt") that that the OP made the whole thing up.
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wrote in message <stuff snipped>

Quite true. It's somewhere between a kangaroo court <g> and that crazy judge program, "An Eye for and Eye" which you really have to see to believe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_for_an_Eye_(TV_series)
"Judge" Extreme Akim dispensed Biblical justice - if someone had broken into a car, the victim was given a hammer and allowed to smash up the perp's car as "payback." Worth watching at least once. My local university shows it weekly for some odd reason.

The "Happy Halloween" was IMHO a dead giveaway that this was a "Devil's Night" sort of prank.

Actually, if someone really wanted to make a case, there's always a way to get to the bottom of a troll post because the newshost keeps IP records. There are a number of other ways to determine who's running a sock puppet - they're usually not as smart at covering their tracks as they think they are. It's not worth the trouble to figure out beyond a shadow of a doubt what at least a few people strongly suspect. How likely is it that someone makes their first and last post on Usenet in this one thread? Not very, IMHO.
--
Bobby G.



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As Tom R noted, this is not a trial, just an analysis. With folks flat-out admitting to trolling for their own amusement, I have to call them the way I see them and this sure sounds like a Halloween prank to me. Some other current threads seem just as prankish. I suppose they're at least on-topic. (-: I suspect the troller gave us the "all clear, all OK" signal because he knows that leaving us hanging also left him open to being discovered. All someone had to do was approach his ISP with a request for more information so that if he was lying dying in a pool of his own whiz someone could dispatch the local EMS.
Some good came out of this - I got a nifty new Sperry VD 6505 non-contact voltage meter (thanks again, Nate for the referral). I can say with certainty if a newbie's life depends on reading this sucker correctly the first time out, he's going to die. Depending on where the dial is set you can get voltage from a stone. After a while I am getting the hang of it but it's pretty tricky and is wildly effected by RF emanations. Dimmers, TV's, CFLs and other devices really have an effect on the readings.
Still, glad to have it and after I play with it a while I would actually trust it to indicate that my water pipes were carrying current.
What I want to do, and what's making my wife nervous, it to cobble together an isolated pipe setup to test various energization scenarios, particular a pipe-clamp grounded device gone bad on a segment of copper pipe no longer well-connected to the ground. Then I could also use a digital voltmeter to try to figure out what levels of current are leaking, etc.
Might do it with a Variac just to keep the V levels to less than lethal. That should still give me some idea of what the readings would look like if I encountered a similar situation in the wild.
--
Bobby G.




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On 11-15-2013, 01:56, Robert Green wrote:

That's what I was referring to in one of my posts when I said a similar tool is not for the untrained. (Didn't use that word, but I'm too lazy to go back and find it.)
--
Wes Groleau

Change is inevitable.
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On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:34:13 -0500, Wes Groleau

than miss one that does if you follow the instructions.
Better safe than sorry.
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I took out the Variac to see if I could feed some low-voltage AC into the bathroom plumbing but a very worried look from SWMBO put the kibosh on that experiment. Agree that it's more likely to find phantom AC than it is to miss real current flow.
--
Bobby G.



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I remember that someone said that but I, too was too lazy to go back to look. (-: Now we know.
Still, it is the right tool for the job with a dash of OJT. I had an unadjustable unit before I picked up the Sperry and that one *really* sucked. This one's a whole lot better although the adjustment dial feels a little flimsy. Not sure it's going to hold up but I also doubt I will be using it every day.
- Bobby G.
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On Friday, November 15, 2013 1:56:45 AM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:

Why don't you do it with 240V and use your pecker as a probe?
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On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:37:36 PM UTC-5, Robert Green wrote:

What for agreeing with you in something you said that is WRONG? Two wrongs don't make a right, the NEC says so.
I didn't expect to find the Spanish

No, you just sent a novice on a search for any ground connections of any kind to his water pipes and told him it was no longer code. The NEC says you're wrong.
I was

Then the Verizon installer was an idiot, because bringing phone, cable, etc by the main electrical system ground to an inter-system ground is what is typically done today. If you just a fraction of what you claim, you would know that. But here you are pontificating on grounding.

If he knew what was code, he wouldn't have told you he doesn't want to bring the line into the service area location, as that is the PREFERRED location.

Why don't you read it and then get back to us?
It's pretty clear this is a case of someone acting like the Wicked

You mean you? You sent the OP on a wild goose chase. Someone who wouldn't even know what a ground connection looks like, what purpose it serves, etc. YOU told him to go look for anything that has a ground clamp and is connected to his water pipes and that it's "no longer code". Complete BS. Check the NEC.
Yes, it's important to be

Yes, by guys like you who don't know what you're talking about. Go find any ground connection to a water pipe! It's no longer code! Good grief.

And you also told him "It's no longer code....", which of course is BS.
If

Too bad you don't know WTF you're talking about.
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On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:18:34 AM UTC-4, philo  wrote:

Again, it's perfectly normal to see CATV, phone grounded to a cold water line. There is nothing wrong with it, it doesn't have to be changed and it has nothing to do with the OP's problem.
And again, it's perfectly normal to see the electrical panel grounded to the cold water line. It's not a code violation. Good grief.
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