Roofing Question

Do you even read the stuff you write before you hit send? I know you don't think about it.

A little while ago you were shouting NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT, now you're telling us that you customarily did business that way? Then you're telling us that you left the deposit thing behind when you went into commercial work. WTF? Sure, there's no difference between commercial and residential work, is there? Sheesh.

R
Reply to
RicodJour
Loading thread data ...

I had my roof repaired last year. This year I got a new roof. Last year I had the valley repaired and did not pay anything up front. The company doing the job was a very large company. This year we decided it was time to replace the old tile roof with shingles before the price got too high for shingles. We paid one third down up front. The company was a small company with a good reputation. When the job was finished we paid the balance. This is customary here (FL). I don't know of any company that would start work without a down payment.

Reply to
Dottie

"RicodJour" wrote

I don't think they put any money out. That's the point. Contractors who don't pay their bills have to pay cash, they have to put money out. Needing money for supplies is a red flag.

Frankly, I've never had to assume anything. The contractor has always procured the products I ask for and when the job is done, I pay them. I would anticipate paying as the job went along, but if someone is a roofer and they can't even swing the cost for shingles and plywood, I would not be comfortable handing them the few hundred dollars.

nancy

Reply to
Nancy Young

"SteveB" wrote

I agree completely, I wouldn't hesitate to put up, essentially, earnest money for something like that. I'm strictly talking about standard construction materials.

nancy

Reply to
Nancy Young

It's comforting to know there's other rational logical people in here. Thanks.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

The number of assumptions in those four sentences is astounding. You have not let us know how you establish that the contractor "needs" a deposit as opposed to "wants" a deposit. You have assumed that there is only one way for a contractor to do business - by using supplier credit. What if the contractor only has an account at a place that has higher prices? Who do you think ends up paying for that? Hint - it's not the contractor.

Supply houses frequently give substantial discounts to contractors for paying at the time of ordering and in cash. Supplier credit costs the supplier. They're extending a short term loan to the contractor. It costs the supplier money and it increases the risk for them. Nothing is life is free - that cost and risk is added to the price of the materials. They reward people for not increasing the cost and risk by giving discounts. The same way you seek a good buy, a contractor seeks a good buy.

You said you don't "think" they put money out. You seem to have confused cash, credit and liability. I would imagine that you have a mortgage on your house like most people. Even though you are not paying all of that money at once, you are liable for paying all of the loaned money back plus interest. As soon as a contractor places an order, they are liable for payment of the dollar amount of that order. If you ignore your mortgage payment, or the contractor doesn't pay the supplier, the charge and liability are still there. While cash has not been laid out, there's still a nice fat red mark in the debit column. That's a liability. The contractor's debt goes in the debit column of the accountant's books. That debit gets canceled out when you make payment. Until that time the contractor is loaning you money.

I do not like the assumptions that the OP's roofer made, and said so. We are not talking about that specific situation - we're now talking in generalities. Saying "can't even swing the cost of" IS assuming.

I need to make a profit. That's why I am in business - to make a profit. That doesn't mean I will automatically make a profit. I don't need money to cover materials. That doesn't mean I won't charge you up front for the materials.

When you say you "would anticipate paying as the job went along", what do you think that means? When do you think the job starts? The project starts as soon as the contract is signed and both parties have agreed to the scope and price of the work, both are engaged in a _construction_ project. Not a banking endeavor. I can afford to cover materials. I won't cover materials. Why should I? I am not a bank. I am not in the business of providing no cost loans. If you'd like a loan to help _you_ swing the cost of the project, that's fine, knock yourself out and talk to you local banker.

There are plenty of contractors who operate differently, and that's fine as that is their business. However I do object to nonsense exclamations like NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT as that is misleading and will get nervous homeowners to throw out good contractors along with the bad.

R
Reply to
RicodJour

You mean as opposed to people that say one thing in one post and contradict themselves in another? I'm with you on that one.

Let's see what the people that write the rules have to say on the matter. We already looked at your home state of Nevada. Let's pick a few biggies.

California information for homeowners

formatting link
says this: Are you required to pay a down payment? If you are, the down payment should never be more than 10% of the contract price or $1,000, whichever is less. Is there a schedule of payments? If there is a schedule of payments, you should pay only as work is completed and not before. There are some exceptions - contact the CSLB to find out what they are.

That makes sense.

Nassau County New York information for homeowners (1.3 million residents)

formatting link
this: Is the Payment Schedule Fair? Avoid a firm that wants a large down payment. A fair down payment would be under 15%. Make payments as each phase of the work is completed. Hold back final payment until all problems have been corrected. Make sure the contract specifies a payment schedule.

That makes sense.

Massachusetts Sample Home Improvement Contract

formatting link
says this: Payments will be made according to the following SCHEDULE: $________ upon signing contract (*Not to exceed 1/3 of the total contract price OR the cost of special order items, whichever is greater*). $________ by __/__/____ or upon completion of

That makes sense, but personally, I think 1/3 of the total contract is pretty steep for a down payment.

Maybe you don't like government, even when they're trying to protect a homeowner. Fine. Let's see what the household names in home improvement have to say.

Bob Vila

formatting link
says this: =B7 Try to limit your down payment. Some state laws limit the amount of money a contractor can request as a down payment. Contact your state or local consumer agency to find out what the law is in your area.

That makes sense.

Holmes on Homes

formatting link
says this: One of the biggest complaints I hear from home owners who've been taken by their contractor is that they paid too much money upfront. Most contracts that home owners sign are based on time. THIS IS TOTALLY INCORRECT. You need to demand a contract and payment plan based on milestones, not set time periods. A good payment plan starts with the down payment. This should be no more than 15% up to $2,500 maximum. Never pay a contractor more than $2,500 before they've even stepped foot in your house.

That makes sense.

The only thing that doesn't make sense is your flip flopping and spouting off about NEVER PAY FOR WORK UP FRONT.

R
Reply to
RicodJour

It is also important to check out the contractors. I had a roofing job done for $60,000 with no deposit required.

I had a siding job done for $42,000 and we paid 1/3 at the start, 1/3 after

50% complete, 1/3 at final. The company that did the job has been in business for 25 years and they did show up the day they said they would. Another siding contractor did not require any deposit but they were $20,000 higher on the bid.
Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

If I do your roof, I don't need a deposit from you.

I do however, expect you to sign all the papers before I deliver product to your property so that I have a lien on your home. If you hesitate to pay on completion, I kick your sorry ass out, auction off your home and take my cut and give you what is left after expenses.

Reply to
ValveJob

formatting link
says this:

In addition to the cites posted above, Home Depot and Lowes both require FULL payment IN ADVANCE of any work done. And we all know how disreputable and in need of cash they are. (Actually, they ARE disreputable.)

Reply to
Robert Allison

The general contractor sure did. The mobilization and mechanization payment before the job begins is substantial.

Reply to
DanG

That's something that's always pissed me off. The big box stores do an end run around the contracting licensing laws because of some stupid contention that they are not contractors, but suppliers. Well, when someone supplies material and labor under one contract, that makes them a contractor. When they sub out the work, that makes them a general contractor.

The big box stores don't participate in restitution funds, obey the maximum deposit regulations, etc., etc. It's just wrong.

R
Reply to
RicodJour

RicodJour wrote: ...

So don't use them...if you could convince enough others (just like in the argument against cheap/inferior/import/whatever merchandise threads) they would either change their ways or quit offering the service...

--

Reply to
dpb

People would always use them. They know the name, they have low prices and high exposure. How many contractors do you know that have their own NASCAR team? They're the 900 pound gorilla, so people who don't know any better think they've gotta be good and don't know the alternatives.

They operate like a contractor, they should be held to the same rules and regulations. It's similar to saying that someone is not in the legislative branch so they don't have to comply with legislative directives, and then that they're not in the executive branch when they don't want to comply with executive directives. It's just stupid.

R
Reply to
RicodJour

Then they must be doing something right for their business model.

Who you want to be complaining to is either your legislature or enforcement depending on whether there isn't appropriate/adequate legislation in your opinion or there is lax enforcement of existing regulation. Same fundamental truth -- get enough widespread support and raise enough clamor and you can be the effector of change. Otherwise, your way to vote is by your own choice.

(And to be clear, not a personal attack intended, simply a pov on how/to whom/where to complain/bitch/protest...)

Reply to
dpb

Well, in one way, they're good for my business. Horror stories tend to loosen up the pocketbooks, and god knows there are enough big box installer horror stories. ;)

Going up against Home Depot would need to be a crusade, and I have enough of them at the moment, but your point is well taken.

R
Reply to
RicodJour

Amen to both! :)

But, imo there are two general classes that choose the box store as installer for a project -- the incurably cheap and the incurably naive/uneducated/uninformed. Neither is what you want as a client, either, until they have at least had an eduction. :(

As I've pointed out in previous threads on the topic, in present US consumer circles there seems to be an endless supply of people wanting the lowest initial cost whatever it is and more of whatever "it" is currently. As long as this mentality reigns predominant, the trend to such behavior by the retailers will also continue to follow the market, however much those who prefer small/independent/high(er) quality/etc., decry it. So far, there seems to be at least a survivable niche for most independent remodelers, etc. The folks really getting squeezed out are the small retailers, etc., that can't compete on the "bread and butter" items that formerly allowed them to be able to stock the lower-volume products.

--

Reply to
dpb

"Robert Allison" wrote >>

And we all know what good installers they use, and how easy it is to get satisfaction if there is a problem.

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

They spend a lot of money advertising showing happy people. They have the majority of people convinced they have the lowest prices to the point that they don't shop around any more. Given the size of the store, the same ill informed consumer thinks the big box stores have every possible piece of hardware imaginable and helpful "associates" will help them find what they need.

I've been to some plumbing and electrical supply houses that seem to have the surliest of clerks that don't want to be bothered with the consumer that has no clue what they want and they just re-enforce why going to Home Depot is better. .

Reply to
Edwin Pawlowski

I think that a lot of the customers for HD and Lowes installation are people that use credit for everything. A lot of these people could never afford to dish out the money for a project, so they use the plastic and not only pay in advance, but with interest alot more than they would if they paid cash.

We small, quality contractors will always be around, because there are a lot of quality minded consumers still around. I cannot do all the work that I am asked to do, yet I never advertise, nor am I in the yellow pages. I just do good work. I am constantly amazed when a person calls out of the blue and we go over who knew who and who recommended me. (And I always get a deposit up front, or at the least, when the materials are delivered. But I never start work without a little money in my pocket.)

Reply to
Robert Allison

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.