New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive

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Ashton Crusher wrote:

The water in the flue gases.
The requirement for new gas boiler installations to be condensing types was introduced in England+Wales back in 2005. However over here, there are exemptions available if it is impractical (ie impossible or unreasonably costly) to provide a flue for it - one of the more likely examples will be a row of terraced houses with centrally positioned back-boilers (in a fireplace) where the costs of moving all the plumbing to the front or back walls would be unfeasible.
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Water from the combustion gases when so much heat is extracted the water can no longer remain in the vapor phase.
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On 11/24/2012 7:02 AM, HeyBub wrote:

http://www.northjersey.com/news/bergen/New_federal_law_may_make_replacing_your_furnace_much_costlier.html?page=all
Every installation of high efficiency condensing furnaces I've been involved with has been vented through the wall with PVC pipe because the exhaust temperature is so low. All of them have a draft inducer or power vent if you want to call it that. So much heat is extracted that water condenses in the combustion chamber and must be drained through the same drain as that used by the AC evaporator coil. ^_^
TDD
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The Daring Dufas wrote:

Hi, Exactly!
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On 11/24/2012 11:39 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:

I did a lot of residential HVAC work with my late friend GB but most of the work I do now is commercial. A few weeks ago I did get a call from a little 90 year old lady who was a customer of mine and GB's to come out and fix her furnace. ^_^
TDD
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Don't keep us in suspense. What did the furnace need, and did she feed you cookies?
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
news:k8rcro$3r2
I did a lot of residential HVAC work with my late friend GB but most of the work I do now is commercial. A few weeks ago I did get a call from a little 90 year old lady who was a customer of mine and GB's to come out and fix her furnace. ^_^
TDD
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On 11/24/2012 5:24 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

I had repaired her furnace a year or two back after GB died when her basement flooded and destroyed the control board. Some moron from another service company had bypassed the flame roll-out switch which resulted it the wiring harness being burned up. Repairing the wiring and replacing the board had it running for at least a year but a few weeks ago the furnace quit and I found that a delayed reaction with moisture had damaged the circuit board in the Honeywell Smart Gas Valve. I replaced the gas valve and everything was back to working as normal. Me and GB had pumped out her basement several years ago and replaced the sump pump, check valve and pipes. The later flood happened due to a power outage during a heavy rain. Now I'm checking into a backup sump pump solution for her. I'm going to take care of the elderly customers as best I can because some jerk is going to show up and rip them off. My late friend GB and me helped out a lot of older folks and last week I was over at his 78 year old sister's place fixing her tankless water heater. Now I have to put together a kit to clean tankless water heaters. ^_^
TDD
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I do remember you menton her. Sounds like that furnace has been brought back from destruction several times. She should start budgeting for replacement.
My parents cellar floods every now and again. It hasn't flooded since I bought a sump pump and 75 foot of discharghe hose from Harbor Freight.
I also do odd jobs for folks, they know I can fix things, and won't cheat them out of a lot of money.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
I had repaired her furnace a year or two back after GB died when her basement flooded and destroyed the control board. Some moron from another service company had bypassed the flame roll-out switch which resulted it the wiring harness being burned up. Repairing the wiring and replacing the board had it running for at least a year but a few weeks ago the furnace quit and I found that a delayed reaction with moisture had damaged the circuit board in the Honeywell Smart Gas Valve. I replaced the gas valve and everything was back to working as normal. Me and GB had pumped out her basement several years ago and replaced the sump pump, check valve and pipes. The later flood happened due to a power outage during a heavy rain. Now I'm checking into a backup sump pump solution for her. I'm going to take care of the elderly customers as best I can because some jerk is going to show up and rip them off. My late friend GB and me helped out a lot of older folks and last week I was over at his 78 year old sister's place fixing her tankless water heater. Now I have to put together a kit to clean tankless water heaters. ^_^
TDD
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On 11/25/2012 6:48 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

That darn Honeywell Smart Gas Valve has the electronics in it for the hot surface igniter, flame sensor, pilot and main gas valve control. It's an expensive gas valve. Most places sell them for $230-$250 but my buddy at the supply house let me have one for a total of $165.00. I gave it to the old gal at cost. I can't imagine what the shinny new truck service company would charge her for it. The next day, me and JH were in Columbus, Mississippi installing a couple of 42" data displays in a large retail store. Each one took two Cat 6 cable runs back to the data rack in the office where we hooked them up and got them going. Monday, I have to go to another retail store and extend a T1 demarc for a new VPN connection. I'll have to do some ladder climbing and that's going to hurt like hell. O_o
TDD
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Sorry to hear that ladder is going to be aches and pains for you. I'd offer to help out, but it's a bit too much drive. Glad you're still taking care of old folks.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
That darn Honeywell Smart Gas Valve has the electronics in it for the hot surface igniter, flame sensor, pilot and main gas valve control. It's an expensive gas valve. Most places sell them for $230-$250 but my buddy at the supply house let me have one for a total of $165.00. I gave it to the old gal at cost. I can't imagine what the shinny new truck service company would charge her for it. The next day, me and JH were in Columbus, Mississippi installing a couple of 42" data displays in a large retail store. Each one took two Cat 6 cable runs back to the data rack in the office where we hooked them up and got them going. Monday, I have to go to another retail store and extend a T1 demarc for a new VPN connection. I'll have to do some ladder climbing and that's going to hurt like hell. O_o
TDD
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On 11/25/2012 5:39 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Me and JH hire a 19 year old neighbor as a wire pulling monkey, he can climb around as well as I could at that age. ^_^
TDD
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That's how it's supposed to work. You got the brains, and he's climbing the ladders.
Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
On 11/25/2012 5:39 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:

Me and JH hire a 19 year old neighbor as a wire pulling monkey, he can climb around as well as I could at that age. ^_^
TDD
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On 11/24/2012 10:08 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:

Sure is bizarre to see PVC flue pipes.
The problem is if the outside wall is not near the furnace. An article in the local paper said furnaces would be on the market soon that would handle longer exhaust/intake pipe runs, which would eliminate (most of?) the much higher installation costs.
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On 11/25/2012 10:18 AM, bud-- wrote:

I've never needed to rent a crane to install 4" PVC pipe. ^_^
TDD
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wrote:

30 feet is not a problem with the existing units up here.
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responding to http://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/new-regs-to-make-furnace-replacement-more-expensive-723122-.htm DA wrote: HeyBub wrote:

Does not have to be a *wall* per se - can still use existing chimney as a chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - there's still your old chimney right there.
I'm not sure what the big fuss is, anyhow: if you are replacing a furnace, you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Makes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government mandated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still worth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it's still far from being free.
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On 11/24/2012 11:44 AM, DA wrote:

chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - there's still your old chimney right there.

are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Makes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government mandated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still worth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it's still far from being free.

But that is sensible reasoning that doesn't flow with the normal heybub drama...
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There are a number of potential problems with trying to route the direct vent pipes up the old chimney. One is the maximum length permitted. It's not unlimited and there is a set maximum spec for the particular furnace. Something like 35 feet or so. And that included derating for any turns. So, you could easily find that routing from the furnace, up the old chimney, exceeds the max length allowed. An even bigger problem is how do you support the long runs of PVC pipe inside an existing chimney? Again, specs for install call for the pipe to be supported every 4 ft along their run. Every chimney I've seen, you have access at the bottom and top only.
Finally, when you have a gas furnace, you almost always have a gas water heater which is also using that chimney. You can't be running flue gases from the water heater into a chimney that has the PVC pipes from the furnace. So, even if you could use the chimney, you would also have to install a new direct vent water heater, again at increased cost. Since you're already forced to try to use the chimney for direct vent, it's not likely that the water heater install is going to be easy either. And increased cost not just for this one time, but about every 10 years when you have to buy a new one. And also have no hot water when the power goes out, as it did here with Sandy. Having a conventional water heater, I had hot water.
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On 11/25/2012 7:46 AM, snipped-for-privacy@optonline.net wrote:

chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - there's still your old chimney right there.

you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Makes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government mandated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still worth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it's still far from being free.

But the chimney isn't the only route. Our boiler is in the middle of the basement and we ran both lines out a sidewall.
As far as supports I don't know but typically support requirements for almost everything are very relaxed when running say through a small chase.

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I never said it was. And venting it out a side wall is the most used option. But I was responding to those who implied that the existing chimney is a viable alternative for routing the PVC pipes. From all that I see and know, it's typically not an option at all.....

Go take a look at the install manual for a typical gas furnace. It's very specific, requires the PVC pipes to be supported every 4 ft. No exceptions for a 30 ft run up a chimney. Have you ever seen a PVC pipe run of any kind the length of an entire chimney that isn't supported every few feet along it's run? One that passed a plumbing inspection that is?

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