New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive

[Ed Pawlowski]

Nope. NG is very clean and water is well, water.

[Tim Watts]

The water in the flue gases.

The requirement for new gas boiler installations to be condensing types was introduced in England+Wales back in 2005. However over here, there are exemptions available if it is impractical (ie impossible or unreasonably costly) to provide a flue for it - one of the more likely examples will be a row of terraced houses with centrally positioned back-boilers (in a fireplace) where the costs of moving all the plumbing to the front or back walls would be unfeasible.

[trader4]

Not a strange world. The issue is that an orphaned water heater typically winds up on a chimney that is now way too small, because it was sized for both the water heater and a gas furnace. Drafting is NOT the issue. Condensation is. In the winter in a chimney that is not entirely contained within the heated part of the house, condensation occurs because the gases now cool off too much. With a furnace also running, the chimney was kept warm enough so that this would not happen. And that condensation, over time, will destroy the mortar in a chimney.

And the other issue is that this is a classic example of govt "fixing" a problem that does not exist. It's an obvious lie that this new rule is going to result in a 20% savings in total energy usage. All it does is force all people to do what probably 90%+ were already doing. And that is that when they decide to replace their gas furnace, it will be with one that is 90%+ efficient.

It never even sunk into their pea brains that to some extent, it could have precisely the opposite effect. Let's say someone has a 35 year old gas furnace. When it was new, it might have had a 70% efficiency. Now being old, it may be down to 50%. They looked at the alternatives and because of the way their house is contructed, putting in a direct vent one would cost too much. They would however put in an 80% one. But now, instead, they will choose to do nothing.

What's next? For the libs to mandate that we all breathe a certain number of times an hour too? Or more likely, continue to expand and control what we can eat, because only you libs are smart enough to know what's best for all of us and we must live by your rules? Leave me free to choose.

[trader4]

What was the efficiency of the 20 year old system? Having a barely noticeable energy savings on gas and electric when replacing a system that old would seem to be very unusual. I put in a new 93% gas furnace and 14 SEER AC two years ago and the difference was large. It cut my gas bill almost in half, summer AC by about 30% or so.

[trader4]

Water from the combustion gases when so much heat is extracted the water can no longer remain in the vapor phase.

[trader4]

a chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller f= urnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you= can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - = there's still your old chimney right there.

ce, you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you = not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more = efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Make= s no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government man= dated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still wor= th getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going t= o be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it'= s still far from being free.

There are a number of potential problems with trying to route the direct vent pipes up the old chimney. One is the maximum length permitted. It's not unlimited and there is a set maximum spec for the particular furnace. Something like 35 feet or so. And that included derating for any turns. So, you could easily find that routing from the furnace, up the old chimney, exceeds the max length allowed. An even bigger problem is how do you support the long runs of PVC pipe inside an existing chimney? Again, specs for install call for the pipe to be supported every 4 ft along their run. Every chimney I've seen, you have access at the bottom and top only.

Finally, when you have a gas furnace, you almost always have a gas water heater which is also using that chimney. You can't be running flue gases from the water heater into a chimney that has the PVC pipes from the furnace. So, even if you could use the chimney, you would also have to install a new direct vent water heater, again at increased cost. Since you're already forced to try to use the chimney for direct vent, it's not likely that the water heater install is going to be easy either. And increased cost not just for this one time, but about every 10 years when you have to buy a new one. And also have no hot water when the power goes out, as it did here with Sandy. Having a conventional water heater, I had hot water.

[Stormin Mormon]

I do remember you menton her. Sounds like that furnace has been brought back from destruction several times. She should start budgeting for replacement.

My parents cellar floods every now and again. It hasn't flooded since I bought a sump pump and 75 foot of discharghe hose from Harbor Freight.

I also do odd jobs for folks, they know I can fix things, and won't cheat them out of a lot of money.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

I had repaired her furnace a year or two back after GB died when her basement flooded and destroyed the control board. Some moron from another service company had bypassed the flame roll-out switch which resulted it the wiring harness being burned up. Repairing the wiring and replacing the board had it running for at least a year but a few weeks ago the furnace quit and I found that a delayed reaction with moisture had damaged the circuit board in the Honeywell Smart Gas Valve. I replaced the gas valve and everything was back to working as normal. Me and GB had pumped out her basement several years ago and replaced the sump pump, check valve and pipes. The later flood happened due to a power outage during a heavy rain. Now I'm checking into a backup sump pump solution for her. I'm going to take care of the elderly customers as best I can because some jerk is going to show up and rip them off. My late friend GB and me helped out a lot of older folks and last week I was over at his 78 year old sister's place fixing her tankless water heater. Now I have to put together a kit to clean tankless water heaters. ^_^

TDD

[Stormin Mormon]

I havn't known that to be a problem. The condensate does tend to be strongly acidic. I put in a 90 percenter in my own home, I think it was year 2004. It has been repaired once since then. The draft inducer fan went dead, and I had to go buy another one.

Christ>Flue gas exhaust from a furnace contains water

[Stormin Mormon]

I think you mean the chimney is way too large.

That said, I've helped install flue liners, for the water heater, in the cases where people put in a 90 percenter furnace.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

.

Not a strange world. The issue is that an orphaned water heater typically winds up on a chimney that is now way too small, because it was sized for both the water heater and a gas furnace. Drafting is NOT the issue. Condensation is. In the winter in a chimney that is not entirely contained within the heated part of the house, condensation occurs because the gases now cool off too much. With a furnace also running, the chimney was kept warm enough so that this would not happen. And that condensation, over time, will destroy the mortar in a chimney.

[HeyBub]

You're right - I phrased that inelegantly.

I should have said "The higher the demand, the greater the supply which will drive down prices.

[The Daring Dufas]

That darn Honeywell Smart Gas Valve has the electronics in it for the hot surface igniter, flame sensor, pilot and main gas valve control. It's an expensive gas valve. Most places sell them for $230-$250 but my buddy at the supply house let me have one for a total of $165.00. I gave it to the old gal at cost. I can't imagine what the shinny new truck service company would charge her for it. The next day, me and JH were in Columbus, Mississippi installing a couple of 42" data displays in a large retail store. Each one took two Cat 6 cable runs back to the data rack in the office where we hooked them up and got them going. Monday, I have to go to another retail store and extend a T1 demarc for a new VPN connection. I'll have to do some ladder climbing and that's going to hurt like hell. O_o

TDD

[George]

chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases you can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck - there's still your old chimney right there.

you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would you not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much more efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Makes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government mandated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still worth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, it's still far from being free.

But the chimney isn't the only route. Our boiler is in the middle of the basement and we ran both lines out a sidewall.

As far as supports I don't know but typically support requirements for almost everything are very relaxed when running say through a small chase.

[George]

nor do much for energy efficiency. People aren't 100% logical and tend not to look at the long-run costs of things- whether it's gas mileage, home energy consumption (heating, A/C, electricity usage in appliances) or even insurance costs (how many people, when deciding between two cars, call their ins co and ask the difference?).

Name calling only makes people look really silly.

Reality is that his observation is correct. Unfortunately a significant portion of the population need someone else to think for them.

gov't is making these rules.

difference in heating costs. It wasn't that big a deal to run a pipe across ten feet of basement and put it through a wall to vent to the outside.

another couple of square feet of usable floor space on two floors.

[trader4]

Yes I did.

Yes, that's one very practical solution. But it's also one of those things that adds to the installation cost of the furnace. Assuming of course you don't just ignore it to win the bid.

[trader4]

as a chase for the vent as well as the intake pipes. On some of the smaller= furnaces all you need is a 2" PVC pipe for each. I imagine in most cases y= ou can still find a shorter way to an outside wall but if completely stuck =

- there's still your old chimney right there.

nace, you are already spending a considerable amount of money. Why would yo= u not spend perhaps less than 10% more (if even that) to install a much mor= e efficient furnace that creates the same amount of heat using less gas? Ma= kes no sense to me to object to a good thing only because "the government m= andated it". Even with gas prices falling right now, I believe it's still w= orth getting a more efficient furnace - never know where the price is going= to be in the future. And regardless, even after the 40%+ fall this year, i= t's still far from being free.

I never said it was. And venting it out a side wall is the most used option. But I was responding to those who implied that the existing chimney is a viable alternative for routing the PVC pipes. From all that I see and know, it's typically not an option at all.....

Go take a look at the install manual for a typical gas furnace. It's very specific, requires the PVC pipes to be supported every

4 ft. No exceptions for a 30 ft run up a chimney. Have you ever seen a PVC pipe run of any kind the length of an entire chimney that isn't supported every few feet along it's run? One that passed a plumbing inspection that is?

[Harry K]

Yep. As far as cars go if it were left up to the market place we would still be driving cars getting 18 mpg at best with zero safety equipment.

Harry K

[trader4]

If the market is incapable of innovation, then how exactly do you explain the cell phone, PC, cordless drill, and all the other items that have a long history of innovation that has driven cost down, increased features, etc?

[bob haller]

around here in pittsburgh the furnace typically used one flue a seperate flue for the water heater.

after all for a large part of the year the furnace would rarely if ever run..

in pittsburgh late april till mid october///

and its not a biggie to cut a hole in a concrete wall or block wall despite what some people think, direct vent is way better.......

overreaction to safety and efficency rules is just that overreaction...

i suggest to those people bothered by this that most rules are reasonable.

Take the NEC, we all benefit from safer and more efficent electrical systems, safer vehicles with better gas mileage etc etc

[bud--]

>

Sure is bizarre to see PVC flue pipes.

The problem is if the outside wall is not near the furnace. An article in the local paper said furnaces would be on the market soon that would handle longer exhaust/intake pipe runs, which would eliminate (most of?) the much higher installation costs.

[missingchild]

Still totally wrong. Especially with something like energy which has limited supply and extracting more from the ground drives prices way up.