A basic 60,000 btu 80% efficiency gas furnace is about $650
A basic 60,000 btu 95% efficiency gas furnace is about $900
It's only $250 difference, you prolly drop that much on a night on the town.
Besides, if you can afford two houses, you must be a wealthy Romney supporter. Obviously you can afford an energy efficient furnace for your luxury vacation home. Stop crying.
So is the hole in the ozone layer. And global warming. As expected from you, you can't keep up. Water heater flues flow into cold chimneys all winter. Sunny days can keep the furnace off for hours. Chimney is cold. Water heater lights up. Happens all the time, and has for ages. Deny that all you want. Most chimney flues are lined. Mine is lined with SS. Also has a condensate drain. That should be addressed when replacing/upgrading a furnace. Had mine installed 17 years ago. I call that "home maintenance." Wasn't required by code. Chimneys are not collapsing all across the country from acid corrosion or freeze/thaw spalling. A furnace and WH are independent actors. Always have been.
No sense at all there. Chimneys don't work by electricity. Codes were/are written for furnace/WH running, furnace only, WH only. Remove furnace or WH from the stack, and the other works just fine. An old house with chimney venting installed before codes, or adequate codes, should face the local inspector. Probable worst case is you have to install a liner, Because of draft, not condensation. CO is the big issue with an over-sized chimney. You're a cracker-barrel type guy, and a good target for salesmen. That's okay. Takes ll kinds.
Sheeeesh! The comprehension skills of some people are extremely lacking.
Norman didn't suggest that you replace a working 80% efficiency furnace.
But if you >>> have
On Nov 26, 5:53=A0pm, Vic Smith wrote:
If it's that sunny and mild in winter so that the furnace stays off for hours, then the chimney is also not that cold, hence any condensation will be minimal. Now look at the real problem. The days and nights when it's 20 or 10F. You have a chimney that was sized for a big old honking furnace and water heater. Now all that goes up it is the water heater, once in a while. Result: Condensation. In fact, all the water is condensing inside the chimney. If it's a masonry chimney, the acid in that water will destroy it over time
Most flues are not lined. The orphaned water heater problem is specific to masonry chimneys. The solution is to line it.
What, your condensate drain?
You wouldn't know what is or isn't required by code. You think chimney sizing isn't covered by code. It sure as hell is here, in NJ and other states that follow the national fuel gas code.
According to you and your flapping gums. Here are just a few of the many credible sources that say you're wrong:
This one is from govt, so being a lib that love govt, you should like it:
Here's one from a home inspection website:
Most older homes, especially in the Northeast, use masonry chimneys to vent their combustion appliances. During the past ten years, many old furnaces and boilers have been gradually replaced with higher- efficiency models that use PVC sidewall vents. When an older furnace is disconnected from a masonry chimney, it may leave behind a so- called "orphaned" water heater, attached to a flue that is now oversized.
However, when it comes to sizing a flue, bigger isn't always better. Oversized flues can contribute to at least three problems: poor draft, chimney corrosion, and freeze/thaw damage to the chimney.
Here's one from Cornell. You libs like govt and academia, right?
What is an orphaned water heater and what can be done to avoid problems associated with an orphaned water heater?
A: =93Orphaned=94 water heater is a term used to describe a storage tank style residential domestic hot water heater that gets left alone as the only combustion appliance vented to a chimney after a furnace or boiler is removed. This usually happens when an older furnace or boiler is replaced by a new and much more efficient model. These newer heating systems capture more heat from the combustion process than older systems. The result is that the temperature of the flue gasses in newer systems is much lower compared to older, less efficient systems. Since the temperatures of the flue gasses are cooler, it makes it possible to vent them directly to the outdoors via a plastic pipe. A fan, built into the furnace or boiler is used to blow combustion gasses through the vent pipe directly to the outdoors.
5 Revised 2012-07 To understand how orphaned water heaters can create problems, it is useful to first think about how a chimney works. A chimney is basically a hollow vertical column with an opening at the top that is exposed to the outdoors. The chimney also has an opening near the bottom that is typically accessed through the basement wall of the house. Exhaust gasses from combustion appliances are directed to this hole near the bottom of the chimney via a metal duct called a flue. Combustion appliances that are relatively inefficient loose lots of heat to the exhaust gasses. It is the heat contained within the combustion gasses that create the natural forces-hot air rises- that draws exhaust gasses up and out of the chimney. If the combustion gasses being directed to the chimney by a combustion appliance are not hot enough, or do not create a sufficient volume of hot air to initiate the draft of the gasses up the chimney, then the combustion gasses spill back into the home. Combustion gasses contain many harmful chemicals, including lethal carbon monoxide, so spillage of those gasses into a home can be very dangerous. And exhaust gasses from natural gas or liquefied petroleum gas (propane) appliances are virtually odorless and invisible. This means if spillage is occurring regularly in homes with orphaned gas water heaters, occupants are usually not aware of the problem until they begin experiencing negative health effects. Spillage is not the only problem that can occur. Since combustion gasses contain significant amounts of water vapor, there is now a risk of condensation forming within the chimney. For example, on a cold winter day, the walls of the chimney may be cold enough so that the water vapor contained within the combustion gasses will condense. When this occurs over time, the acidic condensate can destroy the chimney.As to chimneys not collapsing, here's some photos of some that have substantial condensation damage:
Yeah, there is no sense there, because you're flat out wrong. The national fuel gas codes specify permitted chimney sizing relative to the size of the appliances connected.
Oh, really? Adequate codes according to whom, you? Around here, NJ, you need a permit and inspection to replace a furnace period. I would think that would be the case in many other jurisdictions as well.
Well, you're starting to learn. But why would that be? You just told us two paragraphs ago that chimney size doesn't matter. Now, suddenly it does.
And you're an imbecile. Now go and google "orphaned water heater" You might learn something instead of continuing to make an ass of yourself.
because one Cuyahoga River on fire was one too many?
Too bad trader ain't one of them. Hey, I don't like who I don't like. Get used it or kill-file me. Or whatever you choose. You can go ahead and find him useful if you like. What's with the "liberal" stuff? "Cracker" got your knees jerking again?
Only part worth leaving in, since it exemplifies your approach to "reason." Of course I googled it and know about the "7 times" rule and all. So what? Doesn't mean you aren't an asshole, does it?
"People like me?" Well, hell, ain't you special! And shaming me! Oh, mama! BTW, cracker and cracker-barrel aren't related.
You sniped all of the logic and leave the conclusion. Then complain that he's calling you names. You really are a moron.
There was no logic after I stopped mentioning that furnace and water heater are independent on the same stack. Just repetition of name-calling and endless cut and paste. BTW, your "logic" doesn't get many raves around here either. Geez, we just had an exchange about cell phones or something, and you were civil. But I'm not talking about cell phones now. So f*ck you.
Sure, I can see it, mine is down 39%. But the problem is, people don't "see" it until the job is done and money spent. They see fancy doo-dads and that is what they are easily sold. There are many ways of constructing a house that is greatly more energy efficient, yet most are build the same way they have been for 200+ years. Would you build with SIPS or ICF's? How many houses built that way are you aware of? Many builders are unaware of them, consumers even less so.
No surprise that you didn't recognize it..
There is no surprise that you'd come to that conclusion either. You are one dumb shit.
Your most intelligent and mature response one the NG yet.
A friend locally built a house with sips - that he designed and built. Had one heck of a time getting the building department to OK his plans till he drove his truck up one of the walls as a ramp to demonstrate the strength of the panel.. This was 20 some years ago.
FInd it somewhat telling that you have to go all the way back to '69 for your example.
It would seem to me that when lib Congressmen claim that calling Susan Rice incompetent is racist, that using the "cracker-barrel" term is fair game for racism too. Of course libs have some mighty strange rules.....
No logic? I gave you references from:
State Govt Cornell University Home Inspection Website
All of them address the issue of orphaned chimneys. And all say you are dead wrong. It really isn't a hard concept to grasp. A chimney that is too large for the appliance it serves will have slow moving combustion gases passing through it. In winter, in cold climates, the water in those gases condenses. Natural gas produces acidic condensate which, over time, will cause the mortar in chimneys to fail. If this condensate is not acidic and capable of damage, why do some jurisdictions require neutralizers on condensate drains from natural gas furnaces? If it's potentially bad for a drain system, why is it OK to put it into a masonry chimney? When the chimney had both a furnace and a water heater, it was kept warm enough by the furnace in the cold of winter so that the gases of both the furnace and the water heater could not condense.
I also showed you photos of chimneys with damage from that problem. You claimed that no such problem exists and that no chimneys have been damaged by it. And I pointed out that the National Fuel Gas Code specifies the min and max chimney sizes permitted for given appliances connected to that chimney. You told us it didn't matter. Until you told us it did matter, but only because of drafting. Truth is both issues are factors.
BTW, where are YOUR references, that say the orphaned chimney problem does not exist?
No, the only name calling was at the very end. And as per k, it was the conclusion after all the evidence was given.
Soon condensing water heaters will be required too. and absolutely required when a furnace is replaced......... ending the orphaned flue issue.
this might be a good thing:) have you ever considered how much heated building air must exhaust ot chimney flues each year.........
I am all for such regulation applying to new builds - there:
1) Developers are usually cheapskates and need to be forced - it's not them paying the subsequent heating bills; 2) It's a very tiny relative incremental cost at design/build time.Same with having good insulation (particularly in colder parts).
I, speaking from a Brit perspective, where we've had this condensing boiler requirement since 2005, am against forcing replacements to be upto new build specifications. There, it should be down to the home owner being able to make an informed choice.
what's wrong with 1969? does that make the river catching on fire any less significant that say the BP oil fiasco in the Gulf or the recent compounding pharmacy c*ck-up? or should we just ignore the drugs removed from market like thalidomide, troglitazone, alosetron, cisapride, amineptine, phenylpropanolamine, tovafloxacin, avandia and lots more? of course there's always Love Canal.
then there's always that lead that finds its way into food imports from China or the great Drywall disaster.
messagenews: snipped-for-privacy@f17g2000vbz.googlegroups= .com...
down to 40" not 35
Link for where that came from?
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