New regs to make furnace replacement more expensive

Yabbut...winter or summer a water heater will run into a cold chimney. And so will the furnace. Chimneys cool off fast in winter. That's why there are few unlined chimneys left. Talking about NG only. Haven't had coal or oil in decades. Condensation talk is to sell liners to those who don't have them, or to now sell a hi-efficiency water heater with a dedicated vent. You still see the salesmen and cracker-barrel "experts" using the "orphaned" water heater draft argument, but when people realize the WH was always an orphan, they turn to the acid argument. Anyway, "$3,000 to $4,000" is a BS number. A typical SS liner is WAY less than "$3,000 to $4,000." And so is a typical high-efficiency HW tank with a dedicated vent. DISCLAIMER: Chimney condition is important for your safety, and the above isn't meant to suggest otherwise. If you don't know your chimney is in good condition, have it examined by a professional.

Reply to
Vic Smith
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There are differences. The marketplace needs innovation that can be seen. Take a poll and I bet 95% would choose a Smart phone over a Cat converter in their car.

Your new car sir, is going to cost you $30,000. You have a choice though, it can have the whiz-bang super stereo with Bluetooth or it can have seat belts. What is your choice, you can't have both. How many would take the seat belts? After all, I'm not going to get into an accident, they are for the other guy.

Take that a step further to housing. What is going to move a new house faster, granite counter tops and minimal insulation or bland Formica countertops and super energy efficiency? For the exact same price, the choice is . . . .

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

There is significant variation between manufacturers and even models But 3 elbows and Something like 65' or so. 8 elbows may only get you = down to 40" not 35 The install manuals I've read cover using existing unused chimney as a = option

it very well specific as in Horizontal runs of vent/flue piping must be = supported=20 also "The vent can also be run through an existing unused chimney; however, it must extend a minimum of 12 inches above the top of the chimney. The space between the vent pipe and the chimney must be closed with a weather-tight, corrosion-resistant flashing" Not the best choice But yes it can be done but it's a lot trickier to = get right

Reply to
spud42

They make limestone neutralizers for the discharge.

Reply to
clare

Unless the supply is limitted - either naturally or artificially.

Reply to
clare

My old natural draft was running about 80% - my new forced draft non condensing is about 85% - 88% on low fire. Virtually NO difference in fuel consumption between them - lower electrical consumption from DC blower motor - the heat NOT generated by the blower now has to be made up by the gas - pretty effectively cancelling out the minor efficiency improvement.

Reply to
clare

But untill the furnace was required, the stack temperature was also reasonable due to just the natural draft in the non-damped chimney. The problem comes when the stack is down around zero and the exhaust from the WH is not warm enough to cause a good draft - and you get CO poisoning in the house.

Reply to
clare

If your current yearly heating bill is $1000 and you have an 80% efficient furnace,

$800 is used for heat and $200 is wasted out the exhaust.

With a 95% efficient furnace,

$800 is still used for heat but only $42 is wasted out the exhaust.

Your yearly heat bill drops to $842 yielding a $158 per year savings.

Over the next 15 years you'll save $2370 in fuel. If fuel prices go up, you'll save even more.

Can you really afford an 80% efficient furnace?

Reply to
Normin

Sorry to hear that ladder is going to be aches and pains for you. I'd offer to help out, but it's a bit too much drive. Glad you're still taking care of old folks.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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That darn Honeywell Smart Gas Valve has the electronics in it for the hot surface igniter, flame sensor, pilot and main gas valve control. It's an expensive gas valve. Most places sell them for $230-$250 but my buddy at the supply house let me have one for a total of $165.00. I gave it to the old gal at cost. I can't imagine what the shinny new truck service company would charge her for it. The next day, me and JH were in Columbus, Mississippi installing a couple of 42" data displays in a large retail store. Each one took two Cat 6 cable runs back to the data rack in the office where we hooked them up and got them going. Monday, I have to go to another retail store and extend a T1 demarc for a new VPN connection. I'll have to do some ladder climbing and that's going to hurt like hell. O_o

TDD

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

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I've never needed to rent a crane to install 4" PVC pipe. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

Me and JH hire a 19 year old neighbor as a wire pulling monkey, he can climb around as well as I could at that age. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

That's how it's supposed to work. You got the brains, and he's climbing the ladders.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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Me and JH hire a 19 year old neighbor as a wire pulling monkey, he can climb around as well as I could at that age. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

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30 feet is not a problem with the existing units up here.
Reply to
clare

My situation is a bit different. I'm heating with oil and you don't get quite as efficient, but very close anyway.

My oil fired boiler was 30 years old. It was getting close to needing major work or replacement. Anything I put in would have been a bit more efficient, but I went with a System 2000 by Energy Kinetics.

I have a good record of my fuel use and it average about 800 gallons a year, sometimes a bit more. My savings with the new unit is about 320 gallons a year. My out of pocket cost to replace was about $6000. The math is pretty simple. At the price of oil 30 years ago, it would take me 25 years to get a payback. The price of oil though, went up a tad in recent years. The payback is now 5 years. After the 5 years, I'm saving about $1200 a year. I have more hot water, a quieter system and saving a bunch of money. IMO, you are crazy not to replace an old heater. Sure, gas is cheaper, but using less is still a good thing. Run the numbers. .

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

You can't see a difference in your energy bill? When I replaced my 25 year old furnace, my energy bill was cut by almost half.

Reply to
trader4

I think the obvious example to that question, is yes indeed, not only can you afford the 80% furnace, but it costs less. The 80% furnace is already paid for. The new furnace is going to cost significantly MORE than the $2,370 in fuel saved. Factor in the time value of money and it looks even worse. Plus from what we hear all the time here and from what I've seen personally, 15 years is about the life expectancy of the new furnaces. I've had friends who have replaced them at less than that. So, why pay for a new furnace today when even if it lasts 15 years, you're better off paying for the $2,370 in fuel?

Reply to
trader4

Geez, do you see condensation around the inside of windows in summer or winter? It happens 99% of the time in WINTER because of the colder temps. Water vapor plus COLD equals condesation. In the summer the part of a chimney that runs outside the heated area of a house could easily be 20F. In summer, it's 65 or

75.

If you run your gas furnace in summer, you're doing something wrong.

You're obviously an idiot. Condensation is a real issue. There are codes that specify the size of a chimney for the particular appliance. You can't just vent any size appliance into any size chimney. There is a max size allowed. It's like saying the issue of putting a 20 amp breaker on 14 gauge wire is just to sell breakers.

Again, it's only an issue in WINTER in cold climates. How do you get steam to condense? You COOL it off. With a chimney that supported both a furnace and a water heater, the furnace ran in the winter, keeping the chimney warm enough so that condensation was not a problem. With an orphaned water heater going into a LARGE chimney that was sized for both a furnace and a water heater, the exhaust from the water heater will easily condense in winter because it's moving slowly through a very large chimney. A chimney that is no longer sized correctly for either draft or condensation issues.

That part I agree with.

That's certainly true for the typical case. But we aren't talking just the typical case. The articles point was that there are cases out there that are NOt the typical case. Yet the govt is saying, "Screw you, you have no choice" In other words, it's using BS numbers, ie saving 20% in total heating energy costs across all homes, to justify forcing something down onto the public to fix a non-existent problem.

Good idea, since like usual, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Reply to
trader4

snipped-for-privacy@f17g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...

own to 40" not 35

Link for where that came from?

Reply to
trader4

ution nor do much for energy efficiency. People aren't 100% logical and ten= d not to look at the long-run costs of things- whether it's gas mileage, ho= me energy consumption (heating, A/C, electricity usage in appliances) or ev= en insurance costs (how many people, when deciding between two cars, call t= heir ins co and ask the difference?).

he gov't is making these rules.

rld of difference in heating costs. It wasn't that big a deal to run a pipe= across ten feet of basement and put it through a wall to vent to the outsi= de.

myself another couple of square feet of usable floor space on two floors.

Reality is that you're one of the people that likes to have govt force things on them, even when it's based on lies and fixes non-existent problems. Or do you actually believe the EPA BS that this new rule is going to save 20% of the total heating energy used in the USA? You believe so many people are installing new 80% furnaces today in cold climates that it's an urgent problem that needs more govt regulation?

Again, I live in NJ and I don't know anyone who has installed less than a 90% furnace for years. I went out for quotes two years ago and not one of 4 companies quoted or mentioned anything less than a 90% furnace. So, yeah, I generally associate folks who buy into this govt is the solution to non-existent problems as liberals. Sorry if the truth offends.

Reply to
trader4

I have multiple family members and friends in various aspects of housing and Ed is right on target. They say they have been asked about leaving out insulation or forget about that higher efficiency furnace in favor of getting bragging rights for that granite countertop.

Reply to
George

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