Indiana State Fair stage collapse

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On 8/15/2011 1:20 PM, Pete C. wrote:

IMHO, about the only reason to pay out the ass for tickets, and put up with the hassles of a live show crowd, is for the shared experience of being there with pals or a significant other. In my experience, the albums usually sound better.
--
aem sends...

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wrote:

I think Pink Floyd exceeded that back in their day. They were an exception. These days it seems that this is the norm for all bands.
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snipped-for-privacy@myplace.com wrote:

The towers look plenty strong for the compression and probably bending loads, but the bases not adequate for torque loads. It should have had diagonal cable bracing added after raising.
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On Aug 15, 2:40 am, snipped-for-privacy@myplace.com wrote:

Most of the so-called music these days is nothing but sheer noise.
Harry K
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:03:51 -0500, "LVetter"

Come on now...... "Etch-a-sketch" art is a lot more creative and talented than rap.
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 04:40:22 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@myplace.com wrote:

Have you ever seen the Sugarland show? They use a lot of special effects. That looks like the same stage they set up here in Ft Myers a couple years ago. It is fairly standard stuff for a live show. I bet they will be using more Guy wires next time. They seemed to have it tied down pretty well here, Maybe 75-80 MPH winds were not expected in Indiana. That is a regular "no name" summer storm here.
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On Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:20:39 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I have not seen their shows, in fact I was wondering what that large circle is on the center. I may have to look on youtube and see if there are any videos of their shows. I've only heard some of their music. I think they needs a lot more guy wires and other bracing. Better yet, a smaller stage without all that stuff hanging on the top.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

There won't BE a next time. The producers of this show will have to donate blood to pay off all the damages. Although in their defense, they did announce: "There's a storm coming! Run away, run away!" a few minutes before the disaster.
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You may be correct, but that would be wrong on their part. It is summer. Summer heat spawns thunderstorms. Thunderstorms can often have 70 mph winds. IMO, that would be the minimal design for anything like that. Of course, we don't know how it was engineered or if shortcuts were taken during assembly. Too many possibilities to speculate.
I can also see many lawsuits and finger pointing of blame. Sad for the people lost and their families though. They just went out for a day of fun.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

A thunderstorm can generate winds much in excess of 70 mph. Also lightning and torrential downpours. Plus baseball-sized hail falling from 50,000 feet. Plus tornados. Everything that can go wrong with weather can go wrong in a thunderstorm.
Do not let your daughter marry one
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In this case, though, the actual thunderstorm itself was still 20 minutes or so away.
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Doesn't matter; the wind gusts are often well ahead of the center of the storm.
I live in Indianapolis, about five miles due west of the Fairgrounds. I was working outdoors when the front passed through. The change was sudden and dramatic: within the space of only a couple of minutes, we went from a pleasant, sunny evening with scattered clouds and a light breeze, to near darkness with *very* high winds.
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snipped-for-privacy@example.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Does matter since you can't see them on radar and/or forecast them, at least according to the TV weather guys. I don't remember ever seeing what the NWS people said about it. Under this scenario the only option is cancel everything when a TS is within 20 miles.

Me, too, although marginally farther away and further north. I don't see where the weather forecast fits into this, because of what is noted above. To my mind, anyway, the only concern is what are the standards for wind resistance of the stage and did it meet them. The NEXT concern is whether the standards are enough.
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On 8/16/2011 9:34 AM, Kurt Ullman wrote:

A "bow echo" on radar is suggestive of strong straight line winds. Warnings can be issued based on bow echos.
Under the right conditions (wind toward or away from radar site and radar site relatively near the event so radar can see near the ground) doppler radar can read the wind speed.
A thunderstorm is a hazard for lightning anyway.

For reality on the ground the NWS relies on trained weather spotters. A gust front can affect a relatively large area and weather spotter reports are more likely. The system is setup to get information to the NWS fast.
From what I have read here there was a warning 4 minutes in advance. A question is what the fair officials had been told. Did they suggest people move away or tell them to move away.
For state fair events and baseball games (open roof) here a meteorologist is watching the weather.

Will be interesting what the failure was and whether standards need to be higher.
--
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On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 14:07:13 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@example.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Your tv station WISH TV (wishtv.com) had some of the best coverage I found on the internet. They show the actual weather radar maps just before the collapse. The storm was 12 miles away. So the wind gust was well ahead of the center of the storm.
They also made an animated computer graphic of the stage, showing the tarp come off and the way the winds pulled that tarp, which was the direction it fell. (I question if that roof is just held to the uprights by weight, and not actually fastened?). They said the tarp acted as a sail and lifted the roof before it fell. The part I dont understand is that if the tarp was able to peel off the roof, why didn't the lowest end of it release from the rigging? If that had released, the tarp would have come off entirely and possibly eliminated this whole disaster. A blowing and falling tarp would have done far less damage. If anything, it appears that those tarps should have a method to disconnect when they come loose.
------ This is not a direct response to this, but I saw a concert lately at a county fair. They had a light tower one each side of the stage, standing on the ground right in front of the stage platform. It had a horizontal bar going across just like those used at Indiana. It was only 4 feet tall when they attached the lights, then each end had a crank and two guys raised it to height above the heads of the musicians. (probably about 18 feet, since the stage itself was about 6 feet tall). At the time, I thought that's a really good setup for the workers who have to install the lights, but now I'm thinking that it has another purpose. If high winds are predicted, it only takes seconds to lower it, and can be quickly raised again after the storm.
Just think of all the possiblities a system like that would have for a huge stage, especially of they had a power lift on each upright, and they were all synchronized so in the event of a storm, the whole top could be lowered....... Of course they better have a generator too, in case the power goes out....
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wrote:

And the tarp was already in tatters. So, would that have made it less of a sail or more sails with more lift?

They did. I was listening to the response of IFD and IMPD on the scanner (great job BTW. Just the usual minor BS--- "Control would you get in touch with someone from ladder 31 to move it so the ambulances can get through?") and one of the first things the safety officer reported was that all generators had been shut off, locked and tagged.
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:

From what I've seen, this was a large truss array lifted into place on a series of lift towers by chain hoists, a lot like the now disused due to accidents lift-slab construction. Guy wires radiating out from tops of the lift towers would need to be anchored where the other tents were, so difficult to do. Cross bracing between the lift towers wouldn't need space outside the footprint of the stage, but would have to be installed after the truss frame was hoisted. My speculation would be that they skipped installation of those cross braces since they hadn't had an issue the last 20 times they took that shortcut.
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My thought also. Why do we need all these bolts when it is just coming down in a couple more days? I hope that was not the case. I've always avoided rides on traveling carnivals for that reason. I've seen the seedy crews some use to set them up.
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Talked about in alt.audio.pro.live-sound
Looked flimsy to me.
Greg
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snipped-for-privacy@myplace.com wrote:

Reminds me of a big tree that will come down someday, sooner or later when the wind or ice brings it down and ya don't want to be under it when it does come down. Now those cranes, the ones that look like they are a radio tower with a suspension bridge on top. I'm surprised those don't come down more often.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx5Qt7_ECEE

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