Doorbells - Help Please

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I have replaced my doorbell button five times in a year. It is a wired one, but the light keeps going out. It has a diode in it. The Westminster chimes sound great.
The third time the light went out, I hired an electrician, and it still would not light two months later.
The electrician told me to get a doorbell without the little wire inside the doorbell, called a diode.
Can someone please educate me. From what I am finding out, all wired doorbells must have a diode or else the doorbell won't chime.
If I really don't need a diode, for a wired doorbell, can someone tell me that brand and model number of the unit? I am not interested in a battery operated unit, but surely, there must be a doorbell button out there that just keeps on working.
This cannot be rocket science. The electrician I had moved, so I need to start all over again.
Many thanks!
Kadee
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Kate wrote:

I think your doorbell transformer output voltage is too high. Measure the output voltage. It should be near 24V AC typical. If it is noticeably higher you need to replace it or take a measure to drop the voltage using voltage drop resistor calculated per Ohm's law and consider using LED. Was it working good and suddenly it is burning bulbs? Or see if you can find higher voltage rated lamp like 32V.
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Tony Hwang posted for all of us...

If she has an electrician in to do a doorbell then I don't think she is capable of measuring the voltage or other testing. This is not a slam against her, it's not in her knowledge set.
--
Tekkie

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Kate wrote:

Door bell operates at 10V, 16V(typical) or even 24V AC. Did you replace a chime or button? Look at the tranformer voltage rating and voltage required for the chime. Are they different? There is even a transformer with tri-voltage output. My guess is you have mismatched doorbell system. Ours are 5 notes playing Westminster chime by a rotary gong running on 24V AC. I never replaced bulb in years.
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On Saturday, January 16, 2016 at 9:19:12 PM UTC-8, Tony Hwang wrote:

e



A new doorbell and doorbell button was installed six years ago. It all wor ked fine until the light first went out two years ago. I bought a generic doorbell push button at Home Depot and it worked for a year. Lately, it se ems I need to buy a new doorbell button every few months. The electrician installed a new button and it worked for three months. It is easy to do, s o I installed two more and they both lasted a few months only.
The new doorbell button does not list any volts, etc. As yo can tell, I don't know much about this and I have no idea where the t ransformer is. If it is the fancy box that I bought, and the transformer is inside of that box, well, it hangs on a wall just inside of the front door . It is about 8 feet away from the button.
Thanks for your help.
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wrote:

It all makes sense now. The decreasing time between broken buttons is a sign the world is ending. As it is written, "The world will end with buttons and bows."** Are you getting any broken bows? That would confirm it.
***from "Paleface", but made famous by Dinah Shore, one of the most famous End of the World prophets.
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"Kate" wrote in message
I have replaced my doorbell button five times in a year. It is a wired one, but the light keeps going out. It has a diode in it. The Westminster chimes sound great.
The third time the light went out, I hired an electrician, and it still would not light two months later.
The electrician told me to get a doorbell without the little wire inside the doorbell, called a diode.
Can someone please educate me. From what I am finding out, all wired doorbells must have a diode or else the doorbell won't chime.
If I really don't need a diode, for a wired doorbell, can someone tell me that brand and model number of the unit? I am not interested in a battery operated unit, but surely, there must be a doorbell button out there that just keeps on working.
This cannot be rocket science. The electrician I had moved, so I need to start all over again.
Many thanks!
Karee
I have replace more then on push button but I never came across door push button with diode in inside, if there is diode it would be inside bell enclosure itself.
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On 1/17/2016 12:24 AM, Tony944 wrote:

Except for the ones where it is on the outside.
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On 1/16/2016 10:24 PM, Tony944 wrote:

It depends on the functionality provided by the diode.
A diode *shunting* the button allows (some) power to flow through the button even when it is not pressed (assuming typical AC drive for the doorbell circuit).
A simple 1 or 2 tone "bell" only needs -- and receives! -- power while the button is pressed. The button completes the circuit to the bell WHILE the button is pressed. As soon as the button is released, the circuit is broken.
For a 1 tone bell, the chime/buzzer sounds while the button is pressed.
For a 2 tone bell (ding.... DONG), the first tone is the result of a solenoid pulling a striker to hit the first (DING) chime. The second tone is a result of the striker being released and returning, via a spring driven mechanism (to strike the DONG on the "back end" of the striker).
For more complex mechanisms (and some electronic doorbells), power needs to continue to flow through the button even AFTER it has been released -- the bell mechanism can't "store" the electricity that it needs. The diode allows "half" of the electricity to flow all the time. This is enough for the mechanism to CONTINUE operating.
The mechanism won't *start* its cycle/operation until it "sees" the "full" electricity (which is only present when the diode is SHORTED by the switch -- thereby allowing ALL the electricity to flow to the bell mechanism).
The position of the bell mechanism, electrically, only allows it to get power when the button is closed (or, bridged by that diode). You have to route the wiring differently if you want power to come to the bell unit all the time -- feeding the switch FROM the bell unit (instead of feeding them in series with each other).
So, a diode in the bell unit in a traditionally wired circuit can only *discard* half of the electricity presented to it. If the (non-diode) button is "open" (not pressed), then there is no electricity to discard; no electricity to operate!
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On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 3:10:38 AM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:

Does she really need a back-story on ding-dongs...even if it *is* coming from an "expert ding-dong"? WTF man!
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On 1/17/2016 9:37 AM, bob_villain wrote:

No, she does not. I, however, found it to be an excellent explanation of why it is needed. I learned something today.
Thank you Don, for taking the time.
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On 1/17/2016 8:46 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

She said: "Can someone please educate me. From what I am finding out, all wired doorbells must have a diode or else the doorbell won't chime." Perhaps Bob Bozo Twit can "educate her" less verbosely? Education requires explanation. Clearly, the PAID, PROFESSIONAL electrician did not provide an "education" -- might not even understand *why* the diode is there!
[Hint: *design* an electronic doorbell and you may learn a few practical things!]
While she may not appreciate the details, I've offered a logical reason that explains why a bulb can fail without a diode or when a diode fails (leading to the bulb later "seeing" the full potential of the XFMR).

Goal is to learn something EVERY day! "Settling" for someone else's conclusions leaves you eating *a* fish but never knowing how to catch the next one!

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On Sunday, January 17, 2016 at 12:00:14 PM UTC-6, Don Y wrote:

You are an arrogant and offensive person...kind of a cross between Trader and Micky (sub the Mormon also). Using too many words and way too much narrative. I don't read 80% of your lather for fear of nodding off.
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"Don Y" wrote in message
On 1/16/2016 10:24 PM, Tony944 wrote:

It depends on the functionality provided by the diode.
A diode *shunting* the button allows (some) power to flow through the button even when it is not pressed (assuming typical AC drive for the doorbell circuit).
I need some explanation, you are saying that chimes/bells have constant power at all times through diode when button is not press and full power when button is press, I would love to see that I am not saying that is not possible but I would like to see that.
A simple 1 or 2 tone "bell" only needs -- and receives! -- power while the button is pressed. The button completes the circuit to the bell WHILE the button is pressed. As soon as the button is released, the circuit is broken.
For a 1 tone bell, the chime/buzzer sounds while the button is pressed.
For a 2 tone bell (ding.... DONG), the first tone is the result of a solenoid pulling a striker to hit the first (DING) chime. The second tone is a result of the striker being released and returning, via a spring driven mechanism (to strike the DONG on the "back end" of the striker).
For more complex mechanisms (and some electronic doorbells), power needs to continue to flow through the button even AFTER it has been released -- the bell mechanism can't "store" the electricity that it needs. The diode allows "half" of the electricity to flow all the time. This is enough for the mechanism to CONTINUE operating.
The mechanism won't *start* its cycle/operation until it "sees" the "full" electricity (which is only present when the diode is SHORTED by the switch -- thereby allowing ALL the electricity to flow to the bell mechanism).
The position of the bell mechanism, electrically, only allows it to get power when the button is closed (or, bridged by that diode). You have to route the wiring differently if you want power to come to the bell unit all the time -- feeding the switch FROM the bell unit (instead of feeding them in series with each other).
So, a diode in the bell unit in a traditionally wired circuit can only *discard* half of the electricity presented to it. If the (non-diode) button is "open" (not pressed), then there is no electricity to discard; no electricity to operate!
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Tony, could you please adjust your email client to quote included text? I've manually "compensated", here, to differentiate your comments from mine...
On 1/17/2016 11:06 AM, Tony944 wrote:

Exactly. I tried to illustrate why this can be required with the buzzer/ding-dong examples. I'll rewrite them using LIGHTBULBS!
A traditional doorbell (1 or 2 tone) is like a lightbulb in place of the doorbell (annunciator): WHILE the button is pressed, the bulb is illuminated. When you release the button, the bulb is *cold*.
Now, imagine you wanted that light to blink for 5 seconds when the button is pressed. You can't count on the visitor to HOLD the button pressed for a full 5 seconds. As soon as he releases the button, the electric circuit is broken. The light goes out.
You *could* try to "capture" enough electricity while the button is BEING pressed and then use that STORED energy after it is released to finish the task at hand. E.g., imagine you could INSTANTLY charge up a small battery (*in* the annunicator -- "lightbulb", in this example) when the button is pressed. Then, run your circuit off that battery to "finish the job".
This would allow the visitor to release the button WITHOUT cutting off power to your circuit -- because you've already HORDED the power that you WILL NEED and stored it in that battery. Size the battery large enough to store enough energy to run your "mechanism" for one "cycle" ("tune").
[Capacitors are devices that are used to temporarily store energy in this form. They don't need to be replaced like batteries -- that wear out in relatively short order. But, storing a LOT of energy in a capacitor requires a physically large, expensive capacitor -- especially if you are powering an electromechanically driven mechanism!]
If, instead, you design your mechanism so that it can operate with "half the power", then the diode ensures this "half power" is ALWAYS AVAILABLE to the mechanism. Before and AFTER the button is pressed! All that remains is to determine when FULL power is available -- as that would only happen when the button was BEING pressed. This can then act as a trigger to *start* the mechanism knowing full well that you will be able to continue/finish regardless of whether or not the button remains pressed (because you've designed the mechanism to run properly on "half power")
[Apologies to the /Technologencia/ for the stilted analogies]
The diode approach also works well for "bells" that need power 24/7/365 -- even when you have NO visitors! E.g., I designed an electronic doorbell ~30 years ago that played a "song" based on the current *date* -- Jingle Bells, Birthdays, Auld Lang Syne, etc. As such, it needed power to keep track of the current time/date -- without requiring the user to change batteries every year, etc.
[30 years ago, it was a lot harder to design things that would run "forever" on very small batteries. No lithium ion stuff back then; no ultralow power processors; etc.]
My questions to the OP regarding whether or not the bell still CONTINUES to work (with blown light) were intended to determine if a diode in the button had *failed* (open). If that was the case, the mechanism might *start* (when the button is pressed -- cuz it still would see "full power"), but would abruptly end when the button was released (because that "half power" is no longer flowing through the BLOWN diode to keep the mechanism running to the end of its cycle/tune)
As the diode is always passing current to the mechanism, it could be undersized and eventually "open" like a blown fuse. In this case, the full potential (see my "waves" analogy elsewhere this thread) of the transformer now appears across the bulb. If the bulb had been selected (by the button manufacturer) to expect *half* that voltage, then it is suddenly being overdriven and it, too, turns into a fuse. :>

Satisfied?
[Sorry, this is REALLY hard to explain without illustrations; hence the verbiage.]
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Don this is automatic setup Win-7 live I have no Idea how to make any changes but I will look for it. *************************************************
"Don Y" wrote in message <DIV>&gt;&gt; On 1/16/2016 10:24 PM, Tony944 wrote:</DIV> <DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt; I have replace more then on push button but I never = came across door push</DIV> <DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt; button with diode in inside, if there is diode it = would be inside bell</DIV> <DIV>&gt;&gt;&gt; enclosure itself.</DIV> <DIV>&gt;&gt;</DIV> <DIV>&gt;&gt; It depends on the functionality provided by the = diode.</DIV> <DIV>&gt;&gt;</DIV> <DIV>&gt;&gt; A diode *shunting* the button allows (some) power to = flow</DIV> <DIV>&gt;&gt; through the button even when it is not pressed = (assuming</DIV> <DIV>&gt;&gt; typical AC drive for the doorbell circuit).</DIV> <DIV>&gt;</DIV> <DIV>&gt; I need some explanation, you are saying that chimes/bells have =
constant power</DIV> <DIV>&gt; at all times through diode when button is not press and full = power when button</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Exactly.&nbsp; I tried to illustrate why this can be required = with</DIV> <DIV>the buzzer/ding-dong examples.&nbsp; I'll rewrite them using LIGHTBULBS!</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>A traditional doorbell (1 or 2 tone) is like a lightbulb in = place</DIV> <DIV>of the doorbell (annunciator):&nbsp; WHILE the button is = pressed,</DIV> <DIV>the bulb is illuminated.&nbsp; When you release the button, = the</DIV> <DIV>bulb is *cold*.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Now, imagine you wanted that light to blink for 5 seconds = when</DIV> <DIV>the button is pressed.&nbsp; You can't count on the visitor to = HOLD</DIV> <DIV>the button pressed for a full 5 seconds.&nbsp; As soon as he</DIV> <DIV>releases the button, the electric circuit is broken.&nbsp; = The</DIV> <DIV>light goes out.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>You *could* try to "capture" enough electricity while the</DIV> <DIV>button is BEING pressed and then use that STORED energy</DIV> <DIV>after it is released to finish the task at hand.&nbsp; E.g.,</DIV> <DIV>imagine you could INSTANTLY charge up a small battery</DIV> <DIV>(*in* the annunicator -- "lightbulb", in this example)</DIV> <DIV>when the button is pressed.&nbsp; Then, run your circuit</DIV> <DIV>off that battery to "finish the job".</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>This would allow the visitor to release the button WITHOUT</DIV> <DIV>cutting off power to your circuit -- because you've already</DIV> <DIV>HORDED the power that you WILL NEED and stored it in that</DIV> <DIV>battery.&nbsp; Size the battery large enough to store enough</DIV> <DIV>energy to run your "mechanism" for one "cycle" ("tune").</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>[Capacitors are devices that are used to temporarily store</DIV> <DIV>energy in this form.&nbsp; They don't need to be replaced = like</DIV> <DIV>batteries -- that wear out in relatively short order.</DIV> <DIV>But, storing a LOT of energy in a capacitor requires a</DIV> <DIV>physically large, expensive capacitor -- especially if you</DIV> <DIV>are powering an electromechanically driven mechanism!]</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>If, instead, you design your mechanism so that it can</DIV> <DIV>operate with "half the power", then the diode ensures</DIV> <DIV>this "half power" is ALWAYS AVAILABLE to the mechanism.</DIV> <DIV>Before and AFTER the button is pressed!&nbsp; All that = remains</DIV> <DIV>is to determine when FULL power is available -- as that</DIV> <DIV>would only happen when the button was BEING pressed.</DIV> <DIV>This can then act as a trigger to *start* the mechanism</DIV> <DIV>knowing full well that you will be able to continue/finish</DIV> <DIV>regardless of whether or not the button remains pressed</DIV> <DIV>(because you've designed the mechanism to run properly</DIV> <DIV>on "half power")</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>[Apologies to the /Technologencia/ for the stilted analogies]</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>The diode approach also works well for "bells" that need</DIV> <DIV>power 24/7/365 -- even when you have NO visitors!&nbsp; E.g.,</DIV> <DIV>I designed an electronic doorbell ~30 years ago that</DIV> <DIV>played a "song" based on the current *date* -- Jingle Bells,</DIV> <DIV>Birthdays, Auld Lang Syne, etc.&nbsp; As such, it needed = power</DIV> <DIV>to keep track of the current time/date -- without</DIV> <DIV>requiring the user to change batteries every year, etc.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>[30 years ago, it was a lot harder to design things that</DIV> <DIV>would run "forever" on very small batteries.&nbsp; No lithium</DIV> <DIV>ion stuff back then; no ultralow power processors; etc.]</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>My questions to the OP regarding whether or not the bell</DIV> <DIV>still CONTINUES to work (with blown light) were intended to</DIV> <DIV>determine if a diode in the button had *failed* (open).&nbsp; = If</DIV> <DIV>that was the case, the mechanism might *start* (when the</DIV> <DIV>button is pressed -- cuz it still would see "full power"),</DIV> <DIV>but would abruptly end when the button was released</DIV> <DIV>(because that "half power" is no longer flowing through</DIV> <DIV>the BLOWN diode to keep the mechanism running to the</DIV> <DIV>end of its cycle/tune)</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>As the diode is always passing current to the mechanism,</DIV> <DIV>it could be undersized and eventually "open" like a blown</DIV> <DIV>fuse.&nbsp; In this case, the full potential (see my "waves"</DIV> <DIV>analogy elsewhere this thread) of the transformer now</DIV> <DIV>appears across the bulb.&nbsp; If the bulb had been selected</DIV> <DIV>(by the button manufacturer) to expect *half* that</DIV> <DIV>voltage, then it is suddenly being overdriven and it,</DIV> <DIV>too, turns into a fuse.&nbsp; :&gt;</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>&gt; is press, I would love to see that</DIV> <DIV>&gt; I am not saying that is not possible but I would like to see that.</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>Satisfied?</DIV> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> <DIV>[Sorry, this is REALLY hard to explain without illustrations;</DIV> <DIV>hence the verbiage.]</DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=
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On 1/17/2016 1:27 PM, Tony944 wrote:

Don't kill yourself. Sorry, *I* can't help (I don't use that) but perhaps someone else can chime in...

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On Sun, 17 Jan 2016 13:58:35 -0700, Don Y

I have seen some doorbels that would NOT work with a lighted button too.
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On 1/17/2016 2:11 PM, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

The light pulls current through the bell (annunciator) at all times (much like the diode). So, anything that expects the current to drop to some level below that "lamp current" can fail (i.e., the "mechanism" may never "reset" completely to be ready for the next actuation).
There are all sorts of ways you can confuse a doorbell (annunciator). E.g., you can arrange for current to flow in one way, the other way, both ways, in varying amounts, etc. The challenge to the doorbell (annunciator -- we tend to use the term "doorbell" to refer to the actual *button* AND the *bell*) designer is to anticipate how the home will be wired and make accommodations.
E.g., what if there are TWO buttons driving the single bell (in parallel)? Then, a "diode" button installed "upside down" on one button will effectively let the bell "see" the "full power" (one diode lets the "peaks" through, the other lets the *troughs* through -- bell sees peaks and troughs and thinks someone is pushing *THE* button)
It's a delightfully simple circuit: power -- switch -- bell -- back to power yet can be bastardized in countless ways! And, you don't want the homeowner to have to make changes -- just *mount* the bell, ideally (and touch up any paint around it)
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On 01/17/2016 03:19 PM, Don Y wrote:
[snip]

How about 2 buttons in series, each with a diode across it (opposite polarity)? With no button pressed, no current flows. Press either button, and current flows. Polarity depends on which button was pressed. Now you have a 2-door doorbell with less wiring.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/
  Click to see the full signature.
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