Dishwasher - don't rinse first?

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On Sat, 16 Nov 2013 22:32:00 -0600, Douglas Johnson

Well, you do keep posting.
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Derby,
I think the problem here is that you are not using your kill file to full advantage.
Before your reply I had no idea this thread had gone off the rails like so many others.
--
Dan Espen

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Precisely. Although I used to be very concerned that the six or seven worst-case hijackers here would give bad advice to newbies and needed to be "watched" I finally relented. That's when I began evaluating the motives and overall "helpfulness" of posters. Scolders and hijackers got marked down and when it was clear that more than half their posts were worthless, I kill-filed them. It was a remarkably quick process for some of them.
I've debated whether I should post my twit list and the posts that got people elected to it for newbies to consider, but since most of the newbies in AHR these days seem to be sock puppets meant to bypass existing twit lists, it seemed "unhelpful" in the long run.
Using a kill file has been a remarkably positive change because I no longer feel compelled to correct the massive amounts of deliberate misinformation (along with the sheer stupidity) that the thread hijackers spew.
I now believe that anyone who agrees with them is either a sick sock puppet or not amenable to changing their opinions through logical discussion. Doing so is not only a waste of time, but is *exactly* what they want. People who spend precious time debating with them have that much less time to help people with legitimate home repair problems. That makes two good reasons to twit list the hijackers.
I also believe that it won't be long before any newbie arriving here reaches the same conclusion. Seeing new people react incredulously to some of the flame bait that's constantly churned out renewed my faith in people.
The question I face now is do I twit-list the "good" posters that feel constantly compelled to feed these trolls? Sadly, I think the answer is going to be a resounding "yes." Feeding trolls is not nearly as bad as trolling, but it enables trolls to do their dirty work and shouldn't be encouraged.
Let's just hope that fewer and fewer "good" posters feel the need to respond to any of these hijackers and that the "jackers" are then compelled to argue amongst themselves. Like you, I only see certain bad posters when good ones respond to their trolling.
Of course, knowing that they are being kill-filed will cause a number of them to nym-shift. Fortunately, these sock puppets betray themselves eventually (and pretty quickly since they are basically one-trick ponies) and when they do, my twit-list awaits. Unfortunately some smart people with valuable insight are so rude and belligerent I've had to twit-list them too. Let's hope they are smart enough to eventually realize that their bad attitude results in them being "thread enders" - the kind of people that end threads because no one will engage them.
--
Bobby G.



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<stuff snipped>

Agreed. I've thought about posting a list of all the names of intelligent, thoughtful posters who have either bailed completely or gone into lurking mode and ask what happened to them.
When I look through my cache of stored messages from years gone by there are many posters who seem to have disappeared after being savaged by the same old six or seven posters that just can't control their anger. I admire Higgs Boson for sticking around after being called an "old bag" and really feel sad that no one points out that sort of name-calling behavior is just not acceptable among normal human beings. It's the last childish resort of an emotionally defective person that somehow never managed to grow up.
What these hijackers are trying to do is just "ethnic cleansing" on a small scale. They are determined to drive off others who present facts and opinions that are different so they can wallow in a mud pit full of like-minded people ("minded" may be to strong). The best way to combat that sort of sick thought process is to totally ignore them. It makes them even more vile in their vituperation and although they don't realize it, sabotages whatever valid points they were trying to make.
It also makes it quite obvious to newcomers that they are being deliberately isolated and are not representative of the bulk of AHR posters, most of whom are dedicated to helping others with home repair problems.
--
Bobby G.



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Higgs Boson wrote:

We never rinse plates or whatever. To waste water? DW does the cleaning. that is why we use DW. Don't we?
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As I'm sure you are aware, your situation is not what the "do not pre-rinse" instruction apply to.
In any case, have you you figured out whether or not a rinse only cycle would use less energy than your sink rinse? That's also what some DW manuals suggest, but of course it depends on how many dishes you are rinsing. For one plate and a glass, the sink probably is better.
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On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 10:30:49 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I only run the dishwasher here every few days. I don't rinse by hand or run a rinse cycle. No problems with the dishwasher not cleaning everything just fine. The only thing I will do is if I have something exceptional, like raw egg in a mixing bowl or cake batter, then I will rinse that off by hand first. But regular dishes, utensils, etc go in without rinsing and when run a couple days later, they come out fine.
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On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 12:34:47 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson

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On 11/13/2013 3:34 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:

Right, new DW do not need rinsing. They have soft food disposals built in so most anything can go in. Personally, I do give the worst of the dishes a quick pssst under the faucet, but that's about it. Maybe the dirt bits act as an abrasive like a sandblaster?
Two weeks ago I installed a new KitchenAid. My last one was good, this one is great. I use the "Pro Wash" ccle and the sensors determine the cycle. Everything comes out perfect and sparkles. They should at the cost of the better machines.
One caution. Do not fill the detergent cup all the way. You don't need that much.
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On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 6:54:46 PM UTC-8, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

m to claim that the DW is actually DESIGNED to work better with a lil' bit of schmutz.

Ed, speaking of detergent cups, what do you -- and others -- think of these little "pillows" -- presumably containing both detergent and film-removal (can't think of proper term) which are inserted in the detergent cup. They take the place of powdered detergent in its cup and liquid [whatsitcalled) in its reservoir.
I got a box of them at Costco which is lasting a long time. They are somew hat more expensive, but very convenient and seem to be doing the job for me .
Your opinion?
HB
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On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 01:18:53 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson

For years, I've used Cascade gel and it works well. KitchenAid though, recommends using the Cascade pillows like you have, but they still recommend using a rinse aid in the dispenser. The samples worked well and I may switch once I use up what we have.
I have to wonder though, it they want you to use them for superior cleaning or if there is some sort of financial arrangement. They also tell you to use Affresh once in a while to clean out the machine. So does Maytag washers now and it is made by Whirlpool.
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On Thu 14 Nov 2013 03:57:59a, Ed Pawlowski told us...

The instructions for our 1-1/2 year old Bosch DW specificaly indicated no pre-washing or rinsing. It will even removed all but the very worst burnt on residue on a baking dish. I don't remember offhand if they recomnmended a specific detergent or rinse agent, but I use the Cascade Complete pillows, along with Oxi-Clean Diswasher Booster in the rinse agent dispenser. Phoenix is known for particularly hard water, but we have absolutely spotless dishware and glasses, and even plastic ware.
Once a month (or when I remember) I use a diswasher cleaner (haven't tried the Afresh brand yet), but I do use Afresh cleaner in our Maytag front load clothes washer.
FWIW, for those folks who complain about mold or mildrew in their f/l clothes washers, their failure to leave the door open either betwen washing sessions, or at least until the areas around and within the seals are dry is usually the cause.
--

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On 12/6/2013 12:50 PM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:

To follow up, I've switched 100% to Cascade Platinum tables. The difference is amazing and the dishes sparkle like new. I put in a 30 year old CorningWare dish and you cannot tell it from a brand new one. I'm amazed at everything coming out of the DW. I don't know how much to attribute to the machine and how much to the detergent, but as a team, they do a fantastic job.
I bought the Cascade at BJ's and it works out toe 21¢ a load. At the local supermarket they were near twice that.
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On Fri 06 Dec 2013 11:57:14a, Ed Pawlowski told us...

Ed, I trieed a bucket of Cascade Platinum, but found that in my DW with my local water conditions, the Cascade Complete actually did a better job. I've no idea why.
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~~ If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it. ~~

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On 06 Dec 2013 17:50:36 GMT, Wayne Boatwright

The turn-off about the Bosch was the "screen" rather than having a grinder. They get disgusting and it's one more thing to keep clean.

We've never had to use a "dishwasher cleaner". If it can't clean itself, how clean is it getting the dishes?

No, we're not about to leave the door of a front-loader open. Top-loader, sure, but requiring that a front-loader be left open is nuts.
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On Fri 06 Dec 2013 12:34:16p, told us...

DId you ever actually own a Bosch? My screen stays as clean and shiny as the day it was installed. I think I found a stray kernal of corn on it once, but nothing more.
Having said that, I initially had my doubts about my choice of a Bosch for several reasons, as I had only previously owned dishwashers that had a soft wasate disposer and either a heating element in the bottom or forced air heating for the drying cycle. My doubts vanished after the first load.

The SS tank and racks of my Bosch would stay as clean even if I didn't use a dishwasher cleaner. However, the main function of the cleaner is to dissolve mineral buildup in the pump and interior plumbing parts of the machine. I probabaly wouldn't use a cleaner if I didn't live in an area where the water did have such a high mineral concentration.
I would install a water softener if I could, but the configuration of my buildinhg doesn't allow for that. If I had a water softener, I would have no need for a "dishwasher cleaner".

If you do have a front-loader and you close the door immediately after finishing a load, leaving moisture in the tank and seal, you're just asking for trouble. Virtually every manufacturer recommends that the door be left open until everything is thoroughly dried. As to top-loading machines, for the most part they don't reuire it because there is no seal to the opening and moisture isn't trapped inside.
In any event, in my case it isn't a hardship to leave the door open as my laundry equipment is in a large walk-in pantry with no foot trafic and closed in by a door off my kitchen.
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...snip...

How can a walk-in pantry that doubles as a laundry room have no foot traffic?
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On Sat 07 Dec 2013 07:30:47a, DerbyDad03 told us...

I should have said there is no "pass through" foot traffic. You walk in, you walk out. The location of the laundry equipment is completely out of the way of access to anything else in the pantry.
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On 07 Dec 2013 05:56:27 GMT, Wayne Boatwright

Nope. They got tossed out of the running because of the screen rather than having a grinder. Bad idea. We bought a kitchen full of Electrolux, instead. Much better all around. We were quite happy with them so will do it again - no changes.

That's not the issue. The problem is having to clean the screen. Food *will* get trapped in it and it *does* have to be cleaned. That's its purpose.

Not buying it but then your statement is irrelevant WRT HE clothes washers requiring cleaning.

I'm glad I don't need one. We had one in our first house and it was nothing but a PITA.

Precisely the point. If the door has to be left open, it's a NO SALE. BTW, you're not correct WRT (HE, anyway) top-loaders. They also now have an issue with smell, for the same reasons. The recommendation is to leave them open, also. No real problem because they don't take any more floor space when open, aren't a tripping hazard, and aren't susceptible to damage.

It's wasted space in any floorplan. *BAD* idea. We'll be staying with top-loaders.
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Any floor plan? While technically true, if the space is never used for anything else, there's no impact.
One example:
http://www.anguilla-beaches.com/image-files/4-laundry-room-lg.jpg
Another: In my laundry room, we have 3 coolers stacked in the space between the washer and the sink. Leaving the door open in front of the coolers has no impact on the usable floor space of my laundry area. Does the plexiglas on the inside of the door protrude 5.5" into the room when fully open? Yes. Do I ever walk in the 5.5" area across the face of my washer and dryer? No.
What you emphatically call a bad idea is a non-issue in certain circumstances.
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