computer Surge Suppressor-protector question

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hi all,
If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] should the Surge Protector remain on, or can I turn it off also? Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off?
And, I have other devices [spreakers, cable modem, printer] plugged into it also, so I thought I might as well turn them all off. That way, at the end of the year, I can afford a new set of tires [for my bicycle]
thanks marc
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Hibernation is not turning it off and you need power to the PC. It is the lowest power setting though. If you want to turn off the surge suppressor your will need to "shut-down".
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Your computer will be protected from surges the same with the supressor off or on. Maybe slightly beter with it off.
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wrote:

How do you turn the surge protector off without turning off all equipment that is downstream from the protector?. I would leave it on and shut everything downstream off.
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On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 09:48:35 -0800 (PST), marco polo

The most important thing is to be sure all the inputs to your system and the house are protected. You need phone line and TV cable protection too and be sure it is using the same ground point as the electrical service protection (panel protector). Those surge strips may make you feel good but if you are not stopping most of the problems before they get in your house you are not really doing much.
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On 3/11/2011 1:39 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

I'd add battery back up. I have it on all my computers. You can buy cheap units that will keep power for several minutes in case of a power outage to allow proper shut down.
Also with surge strips, a surge may knock them out and they will not provide protection for the next surge.
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Frank wrote:

I agree that having phone and cable (and dish) entry protectors connected to the power system grounding electrode is real important. If wired to NEC standards entry protectors will be connected this way. Phone companies are quite good at this. Cable not as good. And dish is generally the worst.
You want a short ground wire from the entry protectors to the common connection point. Ten feet may be too long.
It is likely that most equipment damage is from high voltages between power and phone and cable wires rather than high voltage between H-N-G.

NIST surge guru Francois Martzloff looked at the amount of energy that would be dissipated in a MOV in a plug-in suppressor when there was no service panel suppressor. The branch circuit lengths were 10 to 50 meters. The surge on the incoming power wires were up to 10,000A (which is the maximum that has any realistic probability of occurring). The energy dissipated was surprisingly small - 35 joules maximum. In 13 of 15 cases it was 1 joule or less. Contrary to intuition, at all branch circuit lengths the energy dissipation was lower at some of the higher surge currents.
There are 2 reasons the energy was so low. One is that at about 6,000V there is arc-over at the panel or meter. When the arc is established the arc voltage is hundreds of volts. Since "ground" and neutral are connected to the earthing system, that dumps most of the incoming surge energy to earth.
(In Martzloff's investigation, large surges produced arc-over - which greatly limited the energy that reached the MOV. For some lower incoming surges, the MOV downstream on the branch circuit could limit the voltage at the panel to below 6,000V, so there was no arc-over. That resulted in more energy dissipation in the MOV.)
The other reason the energy in the MOV was so low is that a surge is a very short duration event. That means the inductance of the wire is more important than the resistance. The inductance greatly limits the current that can flow, and thus the energy in the MOV. There will be higher current in very short branch circuits.
(NEC 285.25 says that if "included in the manufacturer instructions" there "shall be a minimum of 30 feet of conductor distance from the service.")
Neither service panel or plug-in suppressors protect by absorbing energy. Both absorb some energy in the process of protecting.

>

Assuming you mean a UPS, look at the surge protection rating. And if you depend on it for surge protection it should be listed under UL1449.

MOVs fail by starting to conduct at lower voltages, and finally starting to conduct at normal voltage. That cause thermal runaway and basically a short circuit. UL1449 has, since 1998, required thermal disconnects for failing MOVs. The protected load can be connected across the MOVs and be disconnected when the MOVs are - the protected load stays 'protected'. This is, I believe, how both of the plug-in suppressors I use are wired.
MOVs are probably always connected downstream from the switch. When the switch is turned off the MOVs are not across the incoming power wires, but still are across the outlets.
======================It is important that all interconnected equipment be connected to the same plug-in suppressor. Also that all external wires - power, cable, phone - go through the plug in suppressor. Plug in suppressors primarily protect by clamping the voltages on all wires to the common ground at the suppressor.
--
bud--

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marco polo wrote:

Yes. There are other conduits to the computer besides AC.
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In typed: :: marco polo wrote: ::: hi all, ::: ::: If I turn my computer off at night [hibernation] ::: should the Surge Protector remain on,
It doesn't really matter but it can be a handy place to remove power completely from the PC if that's what you want to do.
::: or can I turn it off also?
Up to you.
::: Can a surge/spike hurt anything with the computer off? :: :: Yes. There are other conduits to the computer besides AC.
Well, that's kind of a useless post; what ARE they?
They are things like ground interruptions surging or browning, taken away by a good surge suppressor. With the surge protector, you are adding a bit of protection to that of the computer but in a way it lessens the effects of overall protection by putting surge suppression ckty in parallel, which means, since it's not resistive, that the timing stretches out before they fire because each one takes on the surge unless/until it gets high enough to let some surges get through. The thing to remember is never to put surge suppression in series because it puts the active components in parallel. That's probably not intuitive but if you draw out two surge suppressor schematics in series, you'll note that the protection devices end up in parallel and overall suppression abilities are thus compromised.
Most importantly: There are things like the telephone or modem lines where surges etc. can get into a PC easily. Those are particularly susceptible to power surges and lightning hits more often than the AC line is, in fact, if the outside wiring is above ground anywhere between you and the telco; which is the usual case. There are a few others but they become mundane compared to the above. Always disconnect the phone/DSL/ADSL etc. connectors whenever you are trying to protect the computer. Only optical cable has any kind of native protection against surge & lightning hits. You are much more likely to experience surge/lightning than you are someone hacking into your machine unless you carelessly designed forms or other user inputs for your web site.
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Phone modem connection, LAN connection, USB cable running to a printer.....

Surge protector/suppressor does nothing for brown out conditions.

How exactly does the surge protector shunting the surge before most of it reaches the PC reduce protection? Answer: It doesn't. In fact, a tiered approach is exactly what is recommended. Best case is 3 tiers. First is a whole house surge protector at the panel. Next is plug-in surge protectors at the point of use that clamp all lines coming into the PC/appliance to the same level, eg AC power, phone, cable.....

Reference please. How does putting two MOVs in parrallel do anything other than offer more potnetial current shunting capability?

That would be impractical for most people to do....
>Only optical cable has any kind of native

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wrote:

starting at the PoCo's transformer, then the service entrance, isolation transformer. Signal lines have shunt to ground gas discharge suppressors, series inductors and shunt to ground solid- state devices on the other side of the inductor. I have seen surge protector boxes blown off the wall but the mainframe computers they were feeding were unscathed .
Jimmie
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MS doesn't recommend turning off the power to the PC.
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Sleep-and-hibernation-frequently-asked-questions
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On 3/11/2011 2:06 PM, Bob Villa wrote:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Sleep-and-hibernation-frequently-asked-questions I've had my desktop connected to the switched on/off side of my surge protector for years, and have using hibernation routinely as well. I always turn off the surge protector power switch after hibernating the desktop, sometimes for more than a day. I'd estimate that no more than a few times a year the system does not "wake up" properly and requires a restart.
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Only reporting the source...you do as you like, of course.
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Peter wrote:

Is the BIOS on your desktop up-to-date?
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On 3/11/2011 3:40 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:

I wouldn't call 2003 up to date! It's a Phoenix BIOS on a Dell Dimension 4600i running XP Home. All I've ever updated is the OS (per MS updates), software applications, and added some RAM.
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In wrote: :: . :: Hibernation, according to MS: :: saves your session, and shuts off the computer; as opposed :: to Not saving your session, and shutting off computer, I :: suppose. :: :: I haven't "shut down" 1st. :: I have been putting my computer into Hibernation, :: and turning off the Surge protector [for weeks now]. :: :: One way or the other, the computer is shut off, :: and when both are turned on, I have my restored programs. :: So, Hibernation does not need power [at least with Windows :: 7]. :: :: I just want to know if the computer is ok [protected] :: with the Suppressor off. :: :: thanks :: mark : : MS doesn't recommend turning off the power to the PC. : : http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Sleep-and-hibernation-frequently-asked-questions
Where does that link say that? Inwhich link it offers? All I see is: " Hibernation is a power-saving state designed primarily for laptops. While sleep puts your work and settings in memory and draws a small amount of power, hibernation puts your open documents and programs on your hard disk, and then turns off your computer. Of all the power-saving states in Windows, hibernation uses the least amount of power. On a laptop, use hibernation when you know that you won't use your laptop for an extended period and won't have an opportunity to charge the battery during that time.
"
They don't say so, but that's the same state as if you did a Shut Down. Things like "Wake from LAN", "wake from USB device", etc, are still possible. As long as the PC has power, those things are possible. To eliminate those possibilities, you must actually remove power from the PC plug, and can be done while a machine is IN hibernation. Everything it needs to come out of hibernation is stored in the registry and on-disk. Nothing resides in memory that's needed with Hibernation. You can kill the power from the surge protector and nothing untoward wll happen; I do it all the time when I have several windows open and things in process. When I come back, it goes to the hard drive and resets everything back exactly as it was when it Hibernated (and power was removed from the PC if that occurred). Just be certain Hibernation is complete before you kill power. And assuming you have sufficient space allocated to Hibernate too.
HTH,
Twayne`
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On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:36:56 -0500, "Twayne"

That's my question too.

Maybe so, but it works great for desktops. If you have multiple programs open and running, you don't have to go start them again. It even restarts cmd .bat files that were running. It picks up just where you left off.
Many people will have to actually close windows every 3 or 4 days, some earlier, some later, but I've been going about 4 days lately.
Once in a while, you have to actually close windows and restart it because the MS Tuesday downloads usually need you to close windows to finish installing them, and other software may require that too. Also, If you start to run out of RAM, you'll have to close. Some programs still don't fully release the ram they use and after a few days, you can run out. Or if the computer slows down for no identifeied reason, restarting will often get it back to the regular speed.
I've always been able to restart from Hibernate in winxp, but have on occasion in win98 had problems restarting from Standby. Since I alwway save my work, I can turn the computer off while in Standby and I've lost no work, but I have to restart all the programs. (And the 10 year old, 4 versions old version of Agent I use only remembers that one ng was open. If I used version 6, it would remember all of them even with a cold start)
I did have to buy a newer video card for 20 or 30 dollars to get Standby and Hibernate to work, but the one I had was about 10 years old.

Sleep, or Standby, has the disadvantage that if the computer gets unplugged, or if a laptop battery runs down, everything that was in memory is forgotten. This would inslude a modiefied file that hasn't been saved. Or a bat file that was running.

It uses none, afaik, except the battery that powers the clock and retains values in the BIOS, adnd you're right, the power needed to let wake-from work, but that's used even when the computer is off, unless maybe one disables wake from.

I had hibernate as far back as win 3.1, I think it was, but it had a different name and came from a 3rd party. I bought it at a hamfest but didn't, couldn't really use it because it took so long to copy my ram to the harddrive and back. Later MS bought it from the author (or maybe stole it and paid him something when he sued, who knows?)

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On 3/11/2011 7:49 PM, mm wrote:

I normally use "standby" much faster wake up. And it took me a while to get it to work, but finally made it so moving the mouse will not wake it up. I hated that, walk by a little too fast and the mouse moves a hair and starts the pc. Now I have to press the keyboard for it to wake up.
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In :::: wrote: ::::: . ::::: Hibernation, according to MS: ::::: saves your session, and shuts off the computer; as ::::: opposed to Not saving your session, and shutting off ::::: computer, I suppose. ::::: ::::: I haven't "shut down" 1st. ::::: I have been putting my computer into Hibernation, ::::: and turning off the Surge protector [for weeks now]. ::::: ::::: One way or the other, the computer is shut off, ::::: and when both are turned on, I have my restored ::::: programs. So, Hibernation does not need power [at least ::::: with Windows 7]. ::::: ::::: I just want to know if the computer is ok [protected] ::::: with the Suppressor off. ::::: ::::: thanks ::::: mark :::: :::: MS doesn't recommend turning off the power to the PC. :::: :::: ::: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Sleep-and-hibernation-frequently-asked-questions ::: ::: Where does that link say that? Inwhich link it offers? ::: All I see is: :: :: That's my question too. ::: " ::: Hibernation is a power-saving state designed primarily ::: for laptops. While :: :: Maybe so, but it works great for desktops. If you have :: multiple programs open and running, you don't have to go :: start them again. It even restarts cmd .bat files that :: were running. It picks up just where you left off. :: :: Many people will have to actually close windows every 3 or :: 4 days, some earlier, some later, but I've been going :: about 4 days lately. :: :: Once in a while, you have to actually close windows and :: restart it because the MS Tuesday downloads usually need :: you to close windows to finish installing them, and other :: software may require that too. Also, If you start to run :: out of RAM, you'll have to close. Some programs still :: don't fully release the ram they use and after a few days, :: you can run out. Or if the computer slows down for no :: identifeied reason, restarting will often get it back to :: the regular speed. :: :: I've always been able to restart from Hibernate in winxp, :: but have on occasion in win98 had problems restarting from :: Standby. Since I alwway save my work, I can turn the :: computer off while in Standby and I've lost no work, but I :: have to restart all the programs. (And the 10 year old, 4 :: versions old version of Agent I use only remembers that :: one ng was open. If I used version 6, it would remember :: all of them even with a cold start) :: :: I did have to buy a newer video card for 20 or 30 dollars :: to get Standby and Hibernate to work, but the one I had :: was about 10 years old. :: ::: sleep puts your work and settings in memory and draws a ::: small amount of power, :: :: Sleep, or Standby, has the disadvantage that if the :: computer gets unplugged, or if a laptop battery runs down, :: everything that was in memory is forgotten. This would :: inslude a modiefied file that hasn't been saved. Or a :: bat file that was running. :: ::: hibernation puts your open documents and programs on your ::: hard disk, ::: and then turns off your computer. Of all the power-saving ::: states in Windows, hibernation uses the least amount of ::: power. :: :: It uses none, afaik, except the battery that powers the :: clock and retains values in the BIOS, adnd you're right, :: the power needed to let wake-from work, but that's used :: even when the computer is off, unless maybe one disables :: wake from. :: ::: On a laptop, use hibernation ::: when you know that you won't use your laptop for an ::: extended period and won't have an opportunity to charge ::: the battery during that time. ::: ::: " ::: ::: They don't say so, but that's the same state as if you ::: did a Shut Down. Things like "Wake from LAN", "wake from ::: USB device", etc, are still possible. As long as the PC ::: has power, those things are possible. To eliminate those ::: possibilities, you must actually remove power from the PC ::: plug, and can be done while a machine is IN hibernation. ::: Everything it needs to come out of hibernation is stored ::: in the registry and on-disk. Nothing resides in memory ::: that's needed with Hibernation. You can kill the power ::: from the surge protector and nothing untoward wll happen; ::: I do it all the time when I have several windows open and ::: things in process. When I come back, it goes to the hard ::: drive and resets everything back exactly as it was when ::: it Hibernated (and power was removed from the PC if that ::: occurred). Just be certain Hibernation is complete before ::: you kill power. And assuming you have sufficient space ::: allocated to Hibernate too. :: :: I had hibernate as far back as win 3.1, I think it was, :: but it had a different name and came from a 3rd party. I :: bought it at a hamfest but didn't, couldn't really use it :: because it took so long to copy my ram to the harddrive :: and back. Later MS bought it from the author (or maybe :: stole it and paid him something when he sued, who knows?) ::: ::: ::: HTH, ::: ::: ::: ::: Twayne`
Hibernation is "OFF". The ONLY things that won't work if you remove all power are things like wake-on-LAN and such. Literally everything you were working on goes to the hard drive. Once it's written to the drive, there is no need to power it. THAT is why it was orginally intended for laptops & the like. Instead of guessing and posting misinformation, why not go research it first, so you have a good post and increase your credbility?
HTH,
Twayne`
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