computer Surge Suppressor-protector question

Where in that MSFT link does it say that? I don't see it.

Reply to
trader4
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My vote for the best answer. Also, even if the power was completely disconnected via switch in the PC, a surge of sufficient voltage could still arc across some wiring point in the PC.

Also, whether the surge protector is turned on or not has no effect on it's surge protection for surges originating on the AC lines. As long as it's connected the MOVs are still there between the line and PC whether the surge protector is on or not. The surge protector uses neglible power, only enough to light the LED indicators.

Reply to
trader4

Phone modem connection, LAN connection, USB cable running to a printer.....

Surge protector/suppressor does nothing for brown out conditions.

How exactly does the surge protector shunting the surge before most of it reaches the PC reduce protection? Answer: It doesn't. In fact, a tiered approach is exactly what is recommended. Best case is 3 tiers. First is a whole house surge protector at the panel. Next is plug-in surge protectors at the point of use that clamp all lines coming into the PC/appliance to the same level, eg AC power, phone, cable.....

Reference please. How does putting two MOVs in parrallel do anything other than offer more potnetial current shunting capability?

That would be impractical for most people to do....

Reply to
trader4

Where does it say..."you can then turn your power strip off" or "pull the plug". If it doesn't say...then it's not recommended. It does say, "That way, if a power failure occurs, Windows can restore your work from your hard disk".

Reply to
Bob Villa

I agree that having phone and cable (and dish) entry protectors connected to the power system grounding electrode is real important. If wired to NEC standards entry protectors will be connected this way. Phone companies are quite good at this. Cable not as good. And dish is generally the worst.

You want a short ground wire from the entry protectors to the common connection point. Ten feet may be too long.

It is likely that most equipment damage is from high voltages between power and phone and cable wires rather than high voltage between H-N-G.

NIST surge guru Francois Martzloff looked at the amount of energy that would be dissipated in a MOV in a plug-in suppressor when there was no service panel suppressor. The branch circuit lengths were 10 to 50 meters. The surge on the incoming power wires were up to 10,000A (which is the maximum that has any realistic probability of occurring). The energy dissipated was surprisingly small - 35 joules maximum. In 13 of

15 cases it was 1 joule or less. Contrary to intuition, at all branch circuit lengths the energy dissipation was lower at some of the higher surge currents.

There are 2 reasons the energy was so low. One is that at about 6,000V there is arc-over at the panel or meter. When the arc is established the arc voltage is hundreds of volts. Since "ground" and neutral are connected to the earthing system, that dumps most of the incoming surge energy to earth.

(In Martzloff's investigation, large surges produced arc-over - which greatly limited the energy that reached the MOV. For some lower incoming surges, the MOV downstream on the branch circuit could limit the voltage at the panel to below 6,000V, so there was no arc-over. That resulted in more energy dissipation in the MOV.)

The other reason the energy in the MOV was so low is that a surge is a very short duration event. That means the inductance of the wire is more important than the resistance. The inductance greatly limits the current that can flow, and thus the energy in the MOV. There will be higher current in very short branch circuits.

(NEC 285.25 says that if "included in the manufacturer instructions" there "shall be a minimum of 30 feet of conductor distance from the service.")

Neither service panel or plug-in suppressors protect by absorbing energy. Both absorb some energy in the process of protecting.

Assuming you mean a UPS, look at the surge protection rating. And if you depend on it for surge protection it should be listed under UL1449.

MOVs fail by starting to conduct at lower voltages, and finally starting to conduct at normal voltage. That cause thermal runaway and basically a short circuit. UL1449 has, since 1998, required thermal disconnects for failing MOVs. The protected load can be connected across the MOVs and be disconnected when the MOVs are - the protected load stays 'protected'. This is, I believe, how both of the plug-in suppressors I use are wired.

MOVs are probably always connected downstream from the switch. When the switch is turned off the MOVs are not across the incoming power wires, but still are across the outlets.

======================= It is important that all interconnected equipment be connected to the same plug-in suppressor. Also that all external wires - power, cable, phone - go through the plug in suppressor. Plug in suppressors primarily protect by clamping the voltages on all wires to the common ground at the suppressor.

Reply to
bud--

You are loosing me. I asked where it gave the information about not to unplug it. You wrote "If it doesn't say...then it's not recommended." It doesn't tell me to put my monitor on top of a *black* desktop, so I'm doing wrong by doing that? It doesn't say which way to position the monitor, does it go toward me or away from me? Damn MS doesn't say, now I'm in a real bind. Common sense tells me that if you remove all external wires from the pc that might be hit by lighting, you will be much safer by making it very much more difficult for a lighting surge to damage it. Now I'm not saying I do that, but it would be safer that way. Uh, but that's not true because MS doesn't say it? Take a look at the subject line.

Reply to
Tony Miklos

If you look at the other replies, you're not alone. Many posters said the same thing, which is the link from MSFT does not say what Bob claims it does. It says absolutely nothing about recommending not to turn computers off.

Reply to
trader4

In news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com, mm typed: :: On Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:36:56 -0500, "Twayne" :: wrote: :: ::: In ::: news: snipped-for-privacy@j13g2000pro.googlegroups.com, ::: Bob Villa typed: :::: On Mar 11, 12:17 pm, marco polo :::: wrote: ::::: . ::::: Hibernation, according to MS: ::::: saves your session, and shuts off the computer; as ::::: opposed to Not saving your session, and shutting off ::::: computer, I suppose. ::::: ::::: I haven't "shut down" 1st. ::::: I have been putting my computer into Hibernation, ::::: and turning off the Surge protector [for weeks now]. ::::: ::::: One way or the other, the computer is shut off, ::::: and when both are turned on, I have my restored ::::: programs. So, Hibernation does not need power [at least ::::: with Windows 7]. ::::: ::::: I just want to know if the computer is ok [protected] ::::: with the Suppressor off. ::::: ::::: thanks ::::: mark :::: :::: MS doesn't recommend turning off the power to the PC. :::: :::: :::

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::: Where does that link say that? Inwhich link it offers? ::: All I see is: :: :: That's my question too. ::: " ::: Hibernation is a power-saving state designed primarily ::: for laptops. While :: :: Maybe so, but it works great for desktops. If you have :: multiple programs open and running, you don't have to go :: start them again. It even restarts cmd .bat files that :: were running. It picks up just where you left off. :: :: Many people will have to actually close windows every 3 or :: 4 days, some earlier, some later, but I've been going :: about 4 days lately. :: :: Once in a while, you have to actually close windows and :: restart it because the MS Tuesday downloads usually need :: you to close windows to finish installing them, and other :: software may require that too. Also, If you start to run :: out of RAM, you'll have to close. Some programs still :: don't fully release the ram they use and after a few days, :: you can run out. Or if the computer slows down for no :: identifeied reason, restarting will often get it back to :: the regular speed. :: :: I've always been able to restart from Hibernate in winxp, :: but have on occasion in win98 had problems restarting from :: Standby. Since I alwway save my work, I can turn the :: computer off while in Standby and I've lost no work, but I :: have to restart all the programs. (And the 10 year old, 4 :: versions old version of Agent I use only remembers that :: one ng was open. If I used version 6, it would remember :: all of them even with a cold start) :: :: I did have to buy a newer video card for 20 or 30 dollars :: to get Standby and Hibernate to work, but the one I had :: was about 10 years old. :: ::: sleep puts your work and settings in memory and draws a ::: small amount of power, :: :: Sleep, or Standby, has the disadvantage that if the :: computer gets unplugged, or if a laptop battery runs down, :: everything that was in memory is forgotten. This would :: inslude a modiefied file that hasn't been saved. Or a :: bat file that was running. :: ::: hibernation puts your open documents and programs on your ::: hard disk, ::: and then turns off your computer. Of all the power-saving ::: states in Windows, hibernation uses the least amount of ::: power. :: :: It uses none, afaik, except the battery that powers the :: clock and retains values in the BIOS, adnd you're right, :: the power needed to let wake-from work, but that's used :: even when the computer is off, unless maybe one disables :: wake from. :: ::: On a laptop, use hibernation ::: when you know that you won't use your laptop for an ::: extended period and won't have an opportunity to charge ::: the battery during that time. ::: ::: " ::: ::: They don't say so, but that's the same state as if you ::: did a Shut Down. Things like "Wake from LAN", "wake from ::: USB device", etc, are still possible. As long as the PC ::: has power, those things are possible. To eliminate those ::: possibilities, you must actually remove power from the PC ::: plug, and can be done while a machine is IN hibernation. ::: Everything it needs to come out of hibernation is stored ::: in the registry and on-disk. Nothing resides in memory ::: that's needed with Hibernation. You can kill the power ::: from the surge protector and nothing untoward wll happen; ::: I do it all the time when I have several windows open and ::: things in process. When I come back, it goes to the hard ::: drive and resets everything back exactly as it was when ::: it Hibernated (and power was removed from the PC if that ::: occurred). Just be certain Hibernation is complete before ::: you kill power. And assuming you have sufficient space ::: allocated to Hibernate too. :: :: I had hibernate as far back as win 3.1, I think it was, :: but it had a different name and came from a 3rd party. I :: bought it at a hamfest but didn't, couldn't really use it :: because it took so long to copy my ram to the harddrive :: and back. Later MS bought it from the author (or maybe :: stole it and paid him something when he sued, who knows?) ::: ::: ::: HTH, ::: ::: ::: ::: Twayne`

Hibernation is "OFF". The ONLY things that won't work if you remove all power are things like wake-on-LAN and such. Literally everything you were working on goes to the hard drive. Once it's written to the drive, there is no need to power it. THAT is why it was orginally intended for laptops & the like. Instead of guessing and posting misinformation, why not go research it first, so you have a good post and increase your credbility?

HTH,

Twayne`

Reply to
Twayne

I didn't post anything that is not so. Maybe instead of hit and run complaints you could learn to put your "correction" after what you think is a mistake, so other readers could see what you think is wrong. Instead of at the end, where no one knows what you're referring to.

I could say the same thing to you.

No, it didn't.

Reply to
mm

Also, we seem to be talking about two things, Turn Off (win-key, u, u) and Unplug.

Bob is concentrating on Unplug.

For years I turned off my UPS after I turned off my computer, to save electricity. (The current UPS can't be turned off with my toes. And because the cord is short, I practically have to get down on teh floor.) Turning off the UPS is equivalent to unplugging the computer. It causes no problem, except that the computer relies on the CMOS battery to keep track of the time and BIOS settings. If wake-on is enabled, it stil won't work because the CMOS battery won't power it.

And people unplug their computers, sometimes for a long time, when they move to another home.

But if Hibernate is used and the UPS or, the Surge Suppressor is turned off, or the computer itself is unplugged, the previous session will still start up where the user left off**.

**I've been wondering, If I install more memory while the computer is in hibernate, will Windows recognize and use the added memory? I know if you plug in a USB device while in Hibernate, Windows will find it, as if you plugged it in just after it finished coming out of Hibernate.
Reply to
mm

"Hibernation is "OFF". The ONLY things that won't work if you remove all power are things like wake-on-LAN and such. Literally everything you were working on goes to the hard drive. Once it's written to the drive, there is no need to power it. THAT is why it was orginally intended for laptops & the like. Instead of guessing and posting misinformation, why not go research it first, so you have a good post and increase your credbility?

HTH,

Twayne`"

Well T-Wayne, as I have said, if want to power-off...and you are in the habit of doing so, and you have been doing so without consequence...by all means. I don't and MS doesn't say to either. Am I a credible source? Some think I am...most...probably not.

Reply to
Bob Villa

You bring up another point: MOVs. MOVs are like reverse fuses - they are normally open until they see a surge, then they short the surge to ground. Problem is, like fuses, they're only good once (or maybe a few times). Then they no longer work and the strip passes the surge straight on through.

Surge protection strips that use sophisticated electronics continue to work, no matter how many surges they encounter.

So how can you tell which you have? If the strip cost in the neighborhood of five bucks, it's the (almost) worthless MOV kind. If it cost $50.00 or more, it's probably the electronic kind.

An all-round better solution is a "Whole-House" surge protector. These cost $50-75 and attach at the circuit breaker box (if your hand fits a screwdriver, you can install one). Moreover, they have little light(s) to tell you they are working.

Reply to
HeyBub

"Whole-House" is definitely not the answer. A UPS with surge suppression would be a better one. Any high-current device switching on or off and going through a common conduit or routed near to the supply circuit of a PC would induce a surge into that circuit. Making "Whole-House" suppression pointless.

Reply to
Bob Villa

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If it will "wake on lan", it is ON. At the very least the power supply is on and any circuitry to monitor the lan is on.

Reply to
Tony Miklos

I read somewhere about studies done that showed the best practice was to cascade surge protection starting where the power enters a structure. Then at distribution panels to protection at individual pieces of gear. The power company here offers a unit that plugs into the meter socket and the meter plugs into the surge protector. Take a look at page 7 of the pdf from the link below:

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TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

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But all that is true after Win-key / Turn Off Computer / Turn Off, also, isn't it? And that's known as Off.

The harddrives aren't spinning, the fans aren't spinning, the output to the monitor and speakers is gone, if there's anything in RAM it might be the "melted" residue of what was there when the computer was running.

Isn't the need for wake-on-lan etc/ the reason they eliminated the mechanical on/off switch on computers and went to a momementary contact switch that controls a circuit which turns everything off, except the little things we've listed, plus a little circuit to turn it back on again.

The only thing different about Hibernate from Turn Off is that before turning off, Hibernate copies the RAM to a file and sets a flag so the OS copies that file back to RAM during startup. IOW everything is the same except for the contents on the harddrive of one big file and probably one short file.

If one considers Hibernate to be On, then Turned Off is also On and what is Off?

Reply to
mm

I don't disagree with you, but for 50 to 75, you get an MOV kind that you calleed almost worthless. The ones I've seen do have a LED that stops being lit when the protector has been zapped.

Actually, I got one of those for about 26 or 36 dollars and the next one up was an Intermatic for 130 or 160. The picture and the description said it had 3 LED's iirc, green ones for each leg and a red one that glowed when one of the legs had been zapped. Sounded great, but a comment said that when the guy received it, it only had one LED, and a few days later, I saw ads for that one. I tried to buy it in person at an electrical supply house, but they didn't have it so I just bought the cheap one. I don't know that I ever have such surges and if I ever do, I'll decide what to replace it with if it blows.

And you can keep your other hand off the bus bar.

Reply to
mm

com,

When the PC is turned off, power to the CPU and RAM are gone and so is any contents.

Not sure if that's the only reason for seperating the on/off button from directly operating the line switch, but it's one obvious reason. Another is that when you push the power button to turn it off, it gives the system time to perform a very quick but orderly shutdown that is safer in terms of corrupting things than the instant power interruption.

Reply to
trader4

Exactly what would that "sophisticated electronics" be? AFAIK, most surge protectors use MOVs because they are the device best suited to handle surges.

I can show you surge protectors from major manufacturers that cost hundreds of dollars that use MOVs.

And guess what they use? MOVs

Reply to
trader4

That is all well and good if it is designed from the construction start...but, I assume the discussion here is about a typical home or office.

Reply to
Bob Villa

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