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What a fuckwit. You're really getting desperate.
<snip rest of empty flame rant>
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Nope, the facts will always be here to back up the correct information. Bullshit is bullshit, no matter how many times you want to say it's accurate.
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So why did you post about your equipment experience? Why don't you want validatation for a survey which you think is correct? Do you always believe in bullshit reports?

Facts, just facts that you can't argue with. You can't come up with anything to discredit MY facts. You give up because you know you lost and the best man won.
Do you want me to type out a survey real s..l..o..w, so you can learn how to read and understand them. LOL
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I believe the opinions of 36,000 people over one egotistical blowhard.

I've lost nothing, Fred.

You have no survey, fool.
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So in a court of law, the Judge would rather take advice from 36,000 people who have limited knowledge of HVAC over a professional in the HVAC industry? You're so funny...

You've lost this debate, Boy.

Try reading it this time...
D o y o u w a n t m e t o t y p e o u t a s u r v e y r e a l s l o w , s o y o u c a n l e a r n h o w t o r e a d a n d u n d e r s t a n d t h e m ?
Was that slow enough for you to understand the question?
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Do you practice being fucking dense, or does it come natural? ONCE MORE. IF THE FURNACE DOESN'T WORK, THE OWNER CALLS FOR SERVICE. THIS "SERVICE CALL" IS THE BASIS OF THE SURVEY, NOT THE REASON FOR THE CALL.

Funny. You keep saying that, but you keep rambling on.

You HAVE no survey, asshat. Your "figures" were pulled out of your ass, along with your logic.
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Say it with me... "Installation issues don't automatically become the equipments fault".
Say it over and over, till you understand what it means. I'm sure you'll be saying it for a very long time.

Then STFU and quit posting bullshit about an inaccurate survey.

Survey was an example, is that to hard for you to understand? Must be, as you couldn't even post accurate facts about it... LOL
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Answer this: (a) There's more of a chance of shitty installs with the lower-rated equipment. or (b)The possibility of a shitty install equal across all brands.

Only in your eyes.

The survey was an "example"? Bwahaha. The survey was based on the experience of 36,000 users.
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b
Facts, boy, FACTS!!!

I posted an example of a simple survey. You couldn't understand it, and couldn't see how it related to a larger survey base. I than changed the numbers, since you were to incompetent to do it yourself. Then you posted an inaccurate statement about the survey and got called on it. Now you want to sidestep all that and say that my survey isn't accurate. The only thing that's inaccurate is your bullshit statement.
That's the biggest pile of shit that I have saw in a long time. You got your ass kicked and you are not man enough to admit it. Is that because you're really a little sissy girl?
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Well there we go. Since statistically, every furnace in the survey has an equal possibility of a shitty install, that effectively *removes* it as an influence of the results of the survey. If you can't see that, you're either a liar or an idiot.

How about you post a link to a reputable website that effectively negates the survey in question?

How about I pull a "simple survey" out of my ass, just like you've done? It's completely and utterly irrelevant.

So sayeth the Black Knight.
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If you can't understand the facts to why their survey is nothing but bullshit, you'll never understand.
And at this point, I know you can't even understand a simple example.
What do you want to discuss next (that you can't understand), Junior?

Geez, how can you not understand what I've posted? Are you really that slow? Did you always ride the short bus?

Yes, it's completely irrelevant when you can't understand it...

Truth is the truth, facts are facts, bullshit is bullshit... And we all know what you've posted is nothing but bullshit.
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As I said before. You' wouldn't know truth if it fucked you all night long and made you breakfast in the morning.

Your admission that bad installs are possible with every brand surveyed equally was the admission I've been waiting for.
This simplifies things considerably. Since no one brand has a disadvantage with regards to bad installations, the survey simply can now be viewed as it should, i.e., ranked in order by number of service calls. No more, no less.
Your two main complaints have been adequately addressed. First, is the age of the survey. I made this quite clear from the get-go that the survey was from 2004. Goodman may now very well be the best furnace money can currently buy, but that doesn't change the results of the survey in question.
Secondly was your insistence that bad installs (something you've failed to substantiate with outside your own bluster) turned out to be a non-starter, with your admission that every brand in the survey had an equal chance of being installed sloppily.
Since I've made my point, consistently, many times, I see no more point in carrying this on. Your inability to parse simple survey data is evident for all to see. Your hand waving appeals to authority, with "facts" you're unable to back up, are a matter of record. Your pathetic "survey" you made up on the spot was dishonest, but at least entertaining.
Being the blowhard you are, you will claim victory, but we all know you'd be full of shit. Once again. I won't be around to read it.
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Facts, do you not know/understand what this means?

Which proves absolutely nothing. To bad you're to incompetent to understand the real facts!

Which doesn't account for different conditions in different areas...
Hacks sell different brands in different areas of the US. Geez, do you think nothing changes from area to area?
This doesn't even take into account that equipment changes EVERY FUCKING YEAR!!!!!

Yes, it does! It means that their survey is complete bullshit. How does this help you make an informed decision today?
God you're ignorant.

Which doesn't mean their survey included the same number of installation errors for every brand. It doesn't account for the same installation errors. It doesn't account for people having different opinions of their equipment. It doesn't account for people who didn't provide accurate information.
The list goes on and on... the survey is based on shit that doesn't allow it to be accurate.

That's because you know you lost and you can't be a man and just admit to it, Boy!

Dishonest? Why, because you couldn't understand it correctly? LOL It was an example that you was to incompetent to understand.

Good, maybe you'll finally quit posting bullshit information!
BTW, I see you didn't counter the information by Robin. LOL
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On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:02:28 -0500, kjpro puked:

You know I would just love to grab you two pathetic fucks by the necks and bang your bloated egos together. I hope others in AHR took notice as to how fucking foolish you two imbeciles are with this endless pissing match and never ever take advice from either one of you dolts.
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Like the information that you provided for the original poster.
BTW, I did help the OP and he was thankful. :-)
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On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:57:44 -0500, kjpro wrote:

Immaterial to my comments as you fucking well know.

Then you went on to participate in a flood of wits and egos that will damn well scare away other not so thick-skinned posters. You are an intelligent person, emote it.
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xModem wrote:
<snip>30,000 is a significant sample. That depends on the parameters of the distribution(s) involved.
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xModem wrote:

are identical replicas by the same mfg'er. Where is the difference? Goodman is bought by lower income individuals that live in homes without proper ductwork & the Return Air filters are allowed to plug, etc. This equipment is usually installed on the fast & cheap with less skilled installer & Techs.
You can not flat out compare their survey of repair frequencies to the quality of the equipment without entering the other critical factors!
So, why is Lennox a high dollar top line brand so low? The Lennox equipment should be in the higher income homes with a better HO maintenance record! That particular survey covers one factor whereas, a dozen or more (things that can be done wrong) factors enter into whether a new high efficiency condenser type gas furnace will require more frequent repairs.
I will take a Goodman, Amana or a Tempstar/Heil & not be the least concerned about their quality! Additionally, you can do a lot of repairing of the small stuff for the price differential on the lower initial cost equipment. Do NOT be fooled by surveys that ignore the critical causative factors for the repair frequencies! http://www.udarrell.com/proper_cfm_btuh_duct_sizing_air_conditioning_systems.html
- udarrell
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WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
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I agreed up until this comment...
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Why are Goodman so much cheaper? You don't believe this economy of purchase isn't reflected in the quality whatsoever? The money has to come off something. They're in business to make maximum profits, after all.
And it's doubtful that the lower income individuals you mention, are going to be readers of Consumers Reports.

Maybe as kjpro pointed out, the higher end models have more bells/whistles, therefore requiring more repairs?

Undoubtedly, but for a homeowner, wanting to find out what the average reliability ratings are, it's a start.

This is why I tried a while back to get some honest answers from the HVAC experts in Usenet, as to what they preferred. I would expect that if you were to be totally honest, that you would probably have a brand preference, if you were installing it in your own home, and probably a brand or 2 that you absolutely wouldn't install in your own home.
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