Central AC Advice

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So the owners of Goodman, in the sample, have a greater incidence of problems. Doesn't matter who installed it, or whatever other factors. The top rated equipment is just as susceptible to other equipment failures.

Mere samplings of 36,000 people. That's significant.

Don't agree at all.

Longevity wasn't the purpose of the survey. The bottom rated may very well outlast the top rated. The survey concerned the number of problems each owner had.

That's your prerogative. As an ex-installer, you probably had a good idea of what equipment you would install in your own home, and what equipment you would avoid too.
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So significant that it only included 12 brands... LMAO

well
owner
But how can one be at the bottom and outlast one on the top? Wouldn't that make that brand better?
You're slipping... better get a grip!
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Don't care. I'm only interested in the ones that *were* reported. Nothing more.

Not at all. Problems and longevity are two different beasts. I've had more than my share of problems with my unit, but it's 18 years old and still going strong. And NONE of them are related to the installation.

Nice try, Mr Astaire.
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Nothing
If you don't care, then why are you putting so much faith in their bullshit survey?

each
more
going
Try? It's all part of the overall picture that you want to overlook. How many other items are you willing to overlook, that effect the *true* FACTS?
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Learn to read, Einstein. I said I was only concerned with the manufacturers in the survey. Besides, YOU are the one who said the manufacturer was moot, and that it all came down to the installer.

You keep rambling on about the True Facts. You keep making up your own data. I gave you the FACTS. You just keep dancing around them
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bullshit
manufacturers
moot,
Yep, the installer *is* the key to a system that will provide you with years of comfort and reliability.
You can't argue with FACTS, boy!

very
data.
Keep making up data? Where? I made up an example to show you why your little 'survey' was complete crap. Then you couldn't even read the damn thing correctly! LOL
I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions pertaining to the outcome of the original CR survey. Why are you scared to answer them? Are you afraid that your answer will make you look worst than you already do? If that's possible. LOL
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The installer I got (recommended by family) did a sloppy-assed job. My unit is 18 years old. Proper *maintenance* has been the longevity factor in my case.

Fuck you and your boy.

Your faux survey.

No, you didn't. You pulled a survey out of your ass, completely made up.

What outcome? What "outcome" do you expect? It's a survey, FFS. It speaks for itself. That you don't like it is of no consequence And I'm not "afraid" of anything, Fred.
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years
unit is

Point? How does this pertain to the survey? How does this validate your survey?

Sorry, I'm not into fucking little boys... I didn't know you was, sorry I brought up something that's a touchy subject for you.

problems
had
still
*true*
It's an example, I'm sorry that you can't understand it, boy!

crap.
That you read and couldn't understand. Sorry it was so complicated. LOL Maybe I'll get a little boy to explain it to you... Ooops, that may be a mistake!

outcome
afraid
speaks
I didn't say I didn't like it, I said that it's complete BULLSHIT. Do you get that? I could careless what it says, it's just more BULLSHIT that gets published in a BULLSHIT magazine.
You must think it's some kind of bible... sorry, but the survey is BULLSHIT.
I would think that if you're into surveys so much that you could at least read and comprehend a simple example. LOL
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kjpro @ usenet.com wrote:

Well kjpro, he will never get it, or give up his argument that the survey predicts equipment brand reliability. There will always be individuals who believe they know more than the service techs who work on the majority of those equipment brands, both in & not listed in that survey.
kjpro, I know that your points & questions are valid because of my direct experience in the field, he only recognizes a survey that leaves out all the requisite factors that must be included for even a somewhat valid survey. Does he have a connection with CR, or is he simply closed minded, or does he just trust statistics based on inadequate premises toward predicting equipment brand repair frequency. CR needs to be a lot more careful when they evaluate equipment based on shallow sample surveys.
In the HVAC equipment field, Factors other than the equipment brand are the major contributors toward higher levels of component failures. If there are particular component problems, each company addresses & eliminates those issues ASAP. (He will NOT accept those realities, additionally, most readers' of CR probably believe as xmodem believes.)
You can make folks believe almost anything with shallow based statistical surveys! No offense to you xmodem, believe what you want to, & buy on that survey. I would go for the best payback plus equipment qualities, proper sizing & especially a quality installation, - which might or might not be a Goodman brand. - udarrell
--
WISDOM PRINCIPLE DIRECTED EMPOWERMENT COMMUNICATIONS -
THE REAL POLITICAL ISSUES and WISDOM BASED PEOPLE EMPOWERMENT
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Some are born to learn and then some are born brain dead like our troll (xModem). It's sad when someone wants to have a debate, but later you find they're incompetent to understand the simple charts which they're debating.

At least their shallow surveys are there for the shallow minded people like xModem.

Why else would they purchase a CR magazine? LOL

No need to apologize to xModem, he's to incompetent to understand a simple survey example.
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It's not MY survey, you pig-ignorant asshat. The survey doesn't require anyone's validation.

You have no content, so you stoop to pedophilia humor. Lost interest in reading the rest of your lies.
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xModem wrote:
<snip>
The survey doesn't require

What it SHOULD have, though, that I haven't yet seen in this thread, is an indication of its statistical validity. Differences can occur randomly, after all, and unless one actually does the statistics, one can't discount the possibility that irrelevant random variation accounts for the "differences" supposedly shown by the results. The methodology used in the survey should also be scrutinized, or there's a danger of such factors as self-selection biasing the results. For instance, there's a famous case of a telephone survey that was done back when not everyone had a telephone -- the results were biased in favor of views held by wealthy respondents.
Without some assurance that the survey is valid, it's no better than anecdotal evidence.
--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form snipped-for-privacy@prodigy.net.
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Here's the text in its entirety, minus the graphics showing the ratings, which were already posted. Make of it what you may:
Furnace picks and pans
Buying a reliable furnace has largely been a roll of the dice, but help is at hand. New data from a Consumer Reports survey of more than 36,000 homeowners show that some brands of gas furnaces, the most common type by far, may be a better bet than others. Gas furnaces from Goodman, for instance, were among the more repair-prone of the 12 big brands in our 2004 Annual Questionnaire.
Overall, about one-sixth of all furnaces installed in the past eight years had needed repair. We found only minor differences between new installations and replacements. Among our other survey findings:
• Nearly 60 percent of repairs were to furnaces that had failed completely and stopped producing heat.
• Almost 40 percent of repairs involved homes left unheated for at least 24 hours.
• Almost 40 percent of repairs cost $150 or more.
According to our survey data, the vast majority of repairs involved a problem with the furnace itself, not with its installation. It’s important to choose not only a good installer but also a reliable brand.
Data are based on 36,181 central furnaces installed between 1997 and 2004; differences of less than 5 points are not meaningful. Data have been standardized to account for higher use in colder climates and differences in age; repairs to thermostats only were not counted as repairs. Note that models within a brand may vary. Our data cannot always anticipate design or manufacturing changes.
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wrote:

which
at
homeowners
a
among
Questionnaire.
Again 12 big brands... is Thermopride and the others not major players in the heating industry? Then you're using a 2004 survey for rating current brands for 2007? Do you realize that is 3 years later? Do you know that manufacture's change their equipment at least once a year? That in itself makes the survey out to be a JOKE.

had
and
and
24
problem
choose
BULLSHIT, most equipment failures are because of installation issues.

in
models
They should include a disclaimer... something like this.
*** Our survey is based on statistics that are gathered from people that have very limited knowledge of HVAC systems. This can leave you with results that may be conflicting to actual data gathered by professionals. You should always consult a professional for further information pertaining to your HVAC equipment needs. ***
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I told you. I don't give a shit. I'm only interested in those 12.

I already mentioned when it was done.

Don't argue with me, idiot. I didn't write the survey.

We've been over this. If a homeowner can't get his furnace working, it's a problem. He doesn't need knowledge to know he's freezing.

I'm sure if you contact Consumers Union, and tell them who you are, they'll issue an abject apology, and print your findings. After all, they've only been in the business since the 1930's, and don't have much experience. Bwahaha.
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wrote:

ratings,
is
be
But one of them (that are not listed) may be better... LOL I guess you have to limit your brain to 12 little brands.

year?
And again, in what way does that validate the survey? Are you able to read my questions, or do you always ignore the things you can't answer?

years
installations
completely
least
Idiot? Who's the one that can't understand a simple survey? LOL

2004;
differences
a
And this tells him it's a failure due to equipment over an installation issue, HOW?

should
they'll
Your right, their 'lack of experience' is proven by their bullshit report that you back up.
I guess it takes an idiot to back up bullshit. Eh Boy?
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Of course. No argument from me on that. But quality doesn't matter, remember? It's all in the installation. LOL.

They were the subject of the survey. The survey is what's under discussion.

If you were paying attention, you'd see that when I posted the ratings, I specifically mentioned it was a 2004 survey.

I've answered you ad nauseam. That you're too dense to understand is of no consequence to me.

Goddamn... For the umpteenth time, HE DOESN'T NEED TO KNOW. All that he's concerned with is that his furnace isn't working. He's had to call a repairman.

Have you called CR yet?

You're a laff riot, Fred.
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wrote:

thread,
occur
The
there's
For
in
help
may
were
in
It is in the installation, but you're so hung up on the survey that you should want to know about the 'other' brands that could be better?
I see you missed the point... AGAIN.

discussion.
You talking about the BULLSHIT survey again? The one you think is accurate?
It's funny how you couldn't even understand a simple survey example. LOL

Point???
It's three years old you freaking idiot.
You are aware that equipment changes many times in that time frame?

no
Just more bullshit, no facts to back up your bullshit. Coarse there never is facts to back bullshit.
You lost, admit it and go on you freaking loser!

a
to
that
that
it's
with
Then how is the survey accurate? If it doesn't look at all the facts, it's a bullshit survey.
Don't you get that yet?

your
only
Why would I, have you?

Whatever, Boy!
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I tried that before with you. You kept refusing to answer, claiming that the ONLY thing I should worry about is competent installation.

Try an pay attention.

I understand completely, just as any 6th grader would as well. Perhaps you should go find a 6th grader.

I said that. Right up front.

Sure. It's an aggregate rating. Go look that up. Of course ALL brands change. In all the ones in the survey, the Goodman brands fared the worst.

Coarse? Ok Fine.

3rd time you've claimed this, but you're still yapping. You may force me to change your name from Fred Astaire to Monty Python's Black Knight.

Of course you know surveys better than an outfit doing them for 70 years.
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statistics,
variation
done
biased
but
far,
players
the
I didn't refuse to answer anything, unlike you who doesn't know how to read survey's. Then later even forget what you posted about them. LOL

accurate?
My attention is on how you think a bullshit survey is providing you with accurate results. LOL

you
There you go, obsessing about little children again. You should really find someone to help you with your problem.

a
I
And that makes it accurate in what way? LOL

worst.
More bullshit by the incompetent Boy.

you
of
is
to
What's that Boy?
Sorry you don't like facts... just like a little cry baby.

eight
at
involved
important
issues.
and
been
Note
or
installation
concerned
I know HVAC and that allows me to understand why their survey is based on inaccurate facts. Just like all the rest of the bullshit you've posted.
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