Appliance industry warns....

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Wasn't that one of the ones they retracted?
I'm reminded of the scene from that episode where they abuse a test subject with a large number of arbitrary recycle bins when I think about how many ways I actually do separate what I discard... 0) Foodstuff-compost barrel where it rot or be flung all over by the crows and ravens 1) Paper,plastic,glass-transfer station, no fee 2) Plastic Redemption Value-recyc center, worth $ 3) Aluminum cans-recyc center, worth $ 4) Diapers (used, not by me)-transfer station, $6/can 5) Batteries-transfer station, no fee 6) Electronics-transfer station, no fee 7) Flourescent light bubs-hazmobile comes twice/year, no fee 8) Motor oil-dump into crick 9) Trash (whatever's left, almost entirely plastic wrap)-transfer station, $6/can
Piece of cake (compost barrel). m
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On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 12:33:04 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster

Liberals/progressives don't put up their OWN money to do stuff, they put up OTHER people's money.
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products should be made to be DURABLE rather than cheap...... mandating a long life, rather than being recycled.
the excellent example are cordless tools, the feds should require easy to replace cells in the battery pack
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On 7/21/2015 9:11 AM, bob haller wrote:

than being recycled.

battery pack

I'd sure like if my cordless tools all had batt packs that came apart with phillips screw diver. Buy sub C nicads or nickel metals with same size (hey, we can make C and D cells the same size). Replace cells as they go bad. I could get used to that idea.
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On Tue, 21 Jul 2015 11:44:27 -0400, Stormin Mormon

I don't trust the government to do any of this but it would be great if NEMA or some other standards organization would come up with a few standard battery configurations and challenge the manufacturers to build to that standard. Imagine what it would be like if every light bulb manufacturer had a proprietary lamp base style or there were a dozen 120v power plug configurations in common use.
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<stuff snipped>

That recommendation is to prevent horrific scalding accidents, especially to children. Take a look at some of these burns and perhaps you'll agree that slightly cleaner dishes from much hotter water might not be worth the societal trade-off of horribly burned children.
http://tinyurl.com/op7csgh
<<Each year, approximately 3,800 injuries and 34 deaths occur in the home due to scalding from excessively hot tap water. The majority of these accidents involve the elderly and children under the age of five. Most adults will suffer third-degree burns if exposed to 150-degree water for two seconds. Burns will also occur with a six-second exposure to 140-degree water or with a 30 second exposure to 130-degree water. Even if the temperature is 120 degrees, a five-minute exposure could result in third-degree burns.>>
http://www.cityoflewisville.com/index.aspx?page19 http://www.cityoflewisville.com/modules/showimage.aspx?imageid 84
I guess I am old-fashioned but if trimming the HW temperature a few degrees saves some little kids from death or horrible maiming, my choice would be to protect the kids and elderly who in many cases are unable to protect themselves.
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On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 01:38:56 -0400, "Robert Green"

But it does explain why commercial dish washers work better with less water.
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<stuff snipped>

Agreed. And you don't find very many kids or elderly people working in a commercial kitchen. At least you're not supposed to find them there. So it's not really an issue for them.
However, don't dishwasher have built-in heaters that can raise the temperature of the wash water internally? Never owned one, so I am not sure how they are designed. Not sure that heating water inside the unit is a tradeoff worse than using too much water, though. (-:
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Bobby G.





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On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 2:03:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

If I don't have any children or elderly in my house, why shouldn't I set the water heater wherever I like?
Cindy Hamilton
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On 7/23/2015 3:29 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

Well, now, you wouldn't want to violate the law, would you?
Surely, you don't want Jones to come back, Squealer said, as he pranced back and forth in his most convincing manner, wisking his tail back and forth for emphasis.
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It sounds like you're never planning to be elderly or have youngsters or elderly people as guests. Or get so sick that you might make a serious mistake. I hope that works out for you! (-:
But seriously, keeping the tank set lower saves energy, too.
My question is what do you gain by amping up the temperature? Most people almost always temper the hot water with cold water in order to use it. I dropped my HW temp way back and I haven't noticed any serious problems. So it seems to me raising the temperature of the water is wasteful because you're going to temper it anyway to be able to use it.
I've been reading about life in the Old West and thank my lucky stars every day that I can turn a tap and get hot water. Back in the old days hot water was a very precious commodity and filling a bath tub with it took enormous effort.
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On Thu, 23 Jul 2015 17:33:21 -0400, "Robert Green"

Back in the 70s when we were first told that 140-160 hot water setting was wasting energy, health officials were saying if you had a dish washer, the hotter water was important to sanitize your dishes. That idea went by the wayside in the mean time. I wondered why they didn't heat the water in dishwashers but I have not heard of one that actually did it. It would be pretty easy since there is already a 1kw heating element in there but it may be a problem because a 15a circuit might not handle the heating element and the motor at the same time. The "economy" setting disables the heater anyway. Dishes air dry or just stay wet in a humid climate.
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<stuff snipped>

That makes sense that dishes should be cooked at the same temperature as meat to kill microbes. I would hope those germs never got to the dish in the first place, but I did a stint as a dishwasher at IHOP many, MANY moons ago and there's no telling what people put on their plates. (-:

That's probably the reason because if it really is necessary to raise the temp to 160F, then someone would have done it by now just as a selling point. I wonder, though, since most dish/flat ware is non-porous if it is actually just as good to thoroughly strip the surfaces of any particles. I sent a lot of dishes back through that had dried egg on them, one of the most mucilaginous substances in the world.

And moldy if you leave them in the dark long enough. (0:
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On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 00:54:00 -0400, "Robert Green"

My wife has 2 commercial kitchens at the country club she runs so I am sure I could get the real info from the chef. I just know the water in the kitchen will scald you. They even piped a different hot water to the hand sinks from the bathroom water heater as a safety thing.

I suppose if they would spec these to only be used on 20a circuits you could use the 1kw heater and the pump at the same time. I am going to see if that is an option when I get a minute

One of the reasons I don't like dish washers. When I am using one in a house we rent on vacation I turn off all of that "economy" stuff and the dishes come out steaming
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<stuff snipped>

We had the same setup at the photofinishing plant where the temperature of the water was extremely important in thoroughly mixing the chemicals.

I suspect another reason restaurants use ultra-hot water is that if you have leftover food gunk on your home dishes, you don't get as grossed out by it as a paying restaurant customer might.
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On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 03:07:23 -0400, "Robert Green"

You won't sue your spouse if someone gets sick and the health department is not poking around your kitchen with an I/R gun once a month.
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On 7/24/15 12:54 AM, Robert Green wrote:

In the service, we were instructed to use four garbage cans to clean mess kits. The first was to scrape garbage. The second was very hot water with soap. We were told to use a sort of toilet brush. The third had a hot disinfectant. The fourth had hot rinse water. In my experience, they were boiling or close to it.
The 1977 manual simply says to dip it in water with any soap or detergent at 130 F, then rinse 30 seconds in boiling water.
It also says to dip 3 seconds in boiling water before eating. wow! Ten times longer to rinse off the detergent than to wash for eating! That's what I don't like about using detergent in the sink.
We were instructed to be sure to get all the grease off, because germs could grow there that could later cause food poisoning.
That's what I like about borax. As long as there's not a lot of grease, like my greasy fingers, it's quick and thorough removing grease and other stuff, and it doesn't even need hot water. There could be a stray germ on a clean surface, but I figure what won't make me sick.
My riveted stainless ladle may be my Achilles heel in kitchen sanitation. It can't be washed in a dishwasher because it has a wooden handle. There are crannies where the handle is riveted to the bowl.
If there's a colony of pathogens in a cranny when I dip the ladle in stew at 140 F on the stove, and the rest of the stew sits on the stove awhile before I think it's cool enough to refrigerate, and it cools slowly in the refrigerator, and I don't reboil it before eating it... dirt I didn't notice in the ladle could cause food poisoning.
Borax seems to clean that ladle better than detergent.
Oh yes... a neighbor worked at a restaurant. Stuff that didn't go through the dishwasher was sanitized in a deep sink with hot bleach water. The health department would measure the concentration of bleach. Bleach won't kill germs as well if there's too much.
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"Cindy Hamilton" wrote in message
On Thursday, July 23, 2015 at 2:03:51 AM UTC-4, Robert Green wrote:

If I don't have any children or elderly in my house, why shouldn't I set the water heater wherever I like?
Cindy Hamilton
I bet I could get yer water hot, Cindy. *I've always been partial to Cindy girls; I get real erotic images in my head.
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Oren posted for all of us...

The septic tank cleaners around here used to spray the goodies on the farmers fields with EPA approval. Then somebody came up with the heavy metals scare, so that stopped. Now they use who knows what and the septic guys take their shit to is anybodies guess.
--
Tekkie *Please post a follow-up*

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wrote:

DC used to have a contractor (Bevard) who hauled away the sludge in big red tractor trailer tanks that looked like elongated concrete mixer tubs (because they were). They hauled it down to Southern Md, mixed it with the silt that remained from their sand and gravel business and after sitting in the sun until the stink went away it was sold to developers as topsoil.
Recently we got some sod here in Florida and when it was wet, we could clearly smell sludge in the soil. It is an unmistakable smell. I guess I know where our sludge goes.
I have never understood where the heavy metal thing came from. Do that many people eat heavy metals? Must be all of that Led Zeppelin they listened to in the 70s.
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