Katrina

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madgardener
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The comment wasn't directed at you, but the person who decided that we needed guns instead of butter. The "Guns and Butter" curve is based on the fact that there is limited productivity. You can produce guns OR butter. When one product goes up, the other goes down unless you can increase productivity. This illustrates the concept of "opportunity loss." In other words, when you decide to go to war, you experience an opportunity loss to produce (or afford) things like infrastructure and consumer goods. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gunsandbutter.asp
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AH HA@!!! I knew you weren't directing the statement towards me, but I always enjoy learning what I don't know. by the way, I wrote a rant (not aimed at you, either) last night in regards to someone's response about the news "coverage" and decided not to post it......I read it this morning, it wasn't bad, but I could sure tell I got caught up in my emotions, again. Now if only the ex-daughter in law would just call and sarcastically tell me "we're alright" and hang up, I'd feel better. I don't care if they have a house to go back to or if everything is lost as long as they're all alright..........apparently the people who live down there have this nonchalant attitude that "it's not as bad as you think, we'll rebuild and everything will be fine". I got this from my son who has talked to two of his best friends who are fine, but have sustained tremendous damage to their homes. One is in TOTAL denial because he manages and trouble shoots Wendy's restaurants near Slidelle and doesn't realize that Slidelle is GONE........................it's just not there, but he thinks he'll be back to work "in a week"...........sigh.........thanks for enlightening me madgardener

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madgardener wrote:

Your sons ex-wife will always be your daughter-in-law. He got a divorce you didn't but that does not mean you have to like her.
--

Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
USDA Zone 8
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someone on this thread asked why other countries weren't helping us or offering aid. As of yesterday, the UN and 31 countries had offered aid. In many cases, there is no one in the US "organized" enough to figure out how to utilize the aid being offered. And of course, our brilliant man at the UN, John Bolton, is probably too busy telling the offering countries to fuck off to figure out how to take advantage of help from them.

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fuck
How about this. We are refusing help:
"Jamaica was among the nations offering what help they could. But the Kingston embassy, while stating its appreciation for the support, politely declined the offers, saying in a statement: "The United States Government is not yet requesting international assistance at this time." http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20050901T000000-0500_87388_OBS_THOUSANDS_FEARED_DEAD__NEW_ORLEANS_TO_BE_ABANDONED.asp
"On tonight's news, CTV (Canadian TV) said that support was offered from Canada. Planes are ready to load with food and medical supplies and a system called "DART" which can provide fresh water and medical supplies is standing by. Department of Homeland Security as well as other U.S. agencies were contacted by the Canadian government requesting permission to provide help. Despite this contact, Canada has not been allowed to fly supplies and personnel to the areas hit by Katrina. So, everything here is grounded. Prime Minister Paul Martin is reportedly trying to speak to President Bush tonight or tomorrow to ask him why the U.S. federal government will not allow aid from Canada into Louisiana and Mississippi. That said, the Canadian Red Cross is reportedly allowed into the area.Canadian agencies are saying that foreign aid is probably not being permitted into Louisiana and Mississippi because of "mass confusion" at the U.S. federal level in the wake of the storm." http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/31/235829/261
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Vox Humana wrote:

Which is why traditional war was initially good for the economy. It can result in unemployed workers finding employment creating supplies for the war. However over the last half century, our military has stockpiled most of what they need ahead of time, so new jobs don't materialize as they did in the past. (Our economy also isn't based as much on manufacturing, either.)
You also don't get the big production shift from consumer goods to war goods even if the war continues. For example, when WWII there had been lots of money made by working class people. For the first time in history, some families had dual incomes. The women were working not because they needed money. They were working because there was a labor shortage. But consumer goods were either not manufacturered, or repurposed for the war effort, so there wasn't anything to spend money on. That money was available to spend after the war, and kept the economy humming for a few years.
Also, today, war is funded by taxes. Taxes that drain money from disposable income. Taxes that aren't used as pooled money to buy things to fuel the economy (such as roads). (The "guns and butter" curve does apply to Federal spending.) All that extra income that couldn't be spent during WWII was put into savings: Specifically war bonds that funded the war instead of direct taxes. So instead of draining money from the economy like the current war, WWII took advantage of disposable income that couldn't be spent.
So the current war didn't give us the initial boost in productivity. It isn't providing additional disposable income to families. And it's draining money from the economy in the form of direct taxes, rather than using borrowed bond money.
So the "guns and butter" curve is actually only kicking in for the Federal government. Disaster relief will further drain money from the pot the Federal government has to spend, which will mean either less "butter" for us, or higher taxes to raise the productivity of the Federal government. But "guns and butter" doesn't apply to our economy directly as it did in the past. We didn't see an initial boost in employment. We're not seeing families gaining disposable income. And there won't be a big pool of money that had been loaned to the government available to spend when the war is over.
And now the huge amount of tax dollars that will be needed for disaster relief will mean further money drained from the economy. There won't be as much money for roads elsewhere. There won't be as much money for education. There won't be as much money available for anything that relies on Federal funding. And while there will be a lot of new jobs created to rebuild, those new jobs are counter-balanced by all the jobs lost in the region. And the money earned on those new jobs won't be going into the national economy. It'll be funneled back into the regional economy for the rebuilding effort.
Funding a war and rebuilding the Gulf Coast at the same time is going to cost us big time. Gas prices over $3 are just the beginning. At some point we may find ourselves with a hard choice: Discontinue funding for either the war or disaster relief, or allow the national economy to collapse. (Any bets on what the current administration doesn't want to stop funding regardless of the cost?) And that's when the "guns and butter" curve will kick in big time. It no longer will just be something affecting the spending of Federal tax dollars. It will affect our entire economy. Once that happens, "guns and butter" will be very real to all of us.
--
Warren H.

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In article snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com says...

Not that this has anything to do with gardening nor do I disagree with your overall statement except that the current war is not currently draining money from the economy in the form of direct taxes. Not one person in the US has paid a single dime to support the current war. All the money is being borrowed which may or may not be paid by future generations. Ironically, one of the main purchasers of US debt is China so, in effect, China is funding the Iraq war, a war I don't think they're too happy about BTW.
As for Katrina relief, no worry. The feds still have plenty of borrowing power left. What's another $100 billion on top of over $7 trillion? Why not make that debt $10 trillion. Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we shall die!
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Your point is well taken. I was thinking primarily about the federal government's ability to fund infrastructure. Ironically, this administration CUT money for the levee project in New Orleans. The Army Corp of Engineers said the money was cut because of the war, thus the "Guns or Butter" analogy. I think that all in-county issues aside (like insurgents and training of new terrorists), the war has made us less safe because we can't invest in infrastructure and disaster planning. We heard about dirty bombs and biological weapons for months last year during the campaign. However, when the shit hit the fan, apparently we haven't a clue about how to respond to a catastrophe. Today I almost spit when I heard the president tell Diane Sawyer that no one could have predicted the failure of the levees!
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The attitude is we can afford to assist our own. In the aftermath of the tsunami, many of the effected areas were not near airports with runways large enough to accommodate transport aircraft, and those that were, did not have the equipment necessary to unload and distribute relief supplies.
That is why the marines and navy were deployed into those areas. Any city in America has sufficient roads and an army of forklift operators, truck drivers and near an airport capable of landing a transport airplane, so we don't really need to park an aircraft carrier to act as a mobile airport and air traffic controller. Every sheriff's department and fire department in the country has a trained Search and Rescue (SAR) team, so we don't need SAR teams from Europe
The problem is, if we weren't at war, the national guard from every neighboring state would have been activated to assist with security, clean up and search/rescue. The problem is of course, all the equipment, and guardsmen are busy searching for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=national+guard+new+orleans
The first story is about the Iowa national guard sending 6 guardsmen and some generators to a hospital, they should be sending way more then that.
-S
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The attitude is we can afford to assist our own. In the aftermath of the

understood, didja see those pictures of I-10 and the causeway? I also watched CBS the other night when they decided on short notice to take "the backroads of 190" and pointed out that major roads were bad enough, but for rural back road communities, a 200 year old oak tree across the only road was more devistating than anyone who doesn't understand this can comprehend. I lived in an area where if the train was running, you sat until it passed. Nevermind that the only grocery store was on the other side....you had to wait. I can well imagine if the backroads to this disaster haven't even been thought about....................little things lift my thoughts though......like that Turkish man in front of his little Po-boy and convenient store who was saying he was staying open to feed anyone who needed food, that he could cook over a pit.............that speaks of the core of what america used to be and possibly is still.
I like to hope that in the face of more disasters that would affect MORE of the country, we'd come together and tell the rest of the world to take care of their own...........how I wish our son's and daughters were home taking care of their own business in their own part of their country. I can't imagine how the people who are FROM the area's hit hard are dealing with the fact that their homes, possibly their families are gone for good.........will the military let them come home to seek out their families and assess the damages, or will they just have to find out when information is released?

good point. and you gave me a ponder to think about..............

oh yes, and didn't you hear? there were NO MDI's.........................................I feel that if shrub really wanted Iraq for the oil, why doesn't he just come out and SAY it, we have the troops, we have the equipment, just take the country, take the oil and sort out the terrorists from the rest of the folks who just wanna live in peace, set up shop and build a few refinaries since the EPA isn't gonna slow things down over there.....................and no, I didn't vote for the bastage.........................................................boy does the Bayou boys song take credence here right now.........(no pun intended) (Creedence Clearwater Revival) Bad Moon rising...........

just makes me tired. and how sad, shrub had to break off his vacation early.......enough of this, I'm going outside to watch the frogs that live in my BBQ pit fountain, and the hummingbirds who are oblivious of nothing else but my late summer buffet, and pick a few ripe figs and thank the gods for a sunny day, heat, and humidity all. madgardener
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As an aside to the storm, I am absolutely over-run with hummingbirds. I had lots of hummingbird attractant flowers in my yard, and the storm knocked all the blooms off. I had taken down the feeders, so the wind wouldn't get them. The evening of the storm, I had cooked over a campstove, was sitting outside eating and oh my gosh, got bombed by a hummer. I immediately put down my dinner and filled up and re-hung the feeders. The little darlings must have put out the word because it is hummingbird heaven. A bright spot in all this mess. Perry Houma, LA southwest of New Orleans

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better put out more feeders Perry, I'm sure the winds stripped off all their blossoms east of you. And it's quite awhile before they make their trek to Mexico for winter...........I have hummer's here too. More than I normally see. My blue Salvia (Blue Egnima that gets 5-6 foot tall) and 4 o'clocks, Cleome, Phlox and trumpet vine are really getting hit hard with the large population of hummers right now. They actually run off the butterflies that are out in force! It's funny to see a hummer running a butterfly! maddie

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interesting that some not so friendly countries, such as Venezuela, Germany, Saudi Arabia, and Russia, have offered help. I could not find mention of help from the UK or Italy, both current allies in Iraq.
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that IS interesting.....................and considering Venezuela has reason to want to feed Pat Robertson some of their hottest and spiciest food right now with a tall, chilled glass of Mexico's finest water, I'm encouraged that they don't judge all of us by one zealot.....................................

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google "foreign aid katrina".
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well, after four days of refusing all foreign help, the administration is now saying they will accept it all. they look like cretins. this is one man made disaster.
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Are you basing this on our wonderful media non-coverage of the "news?" If it doesn't involve a missing drunk white girl or a runaway bride, you aren't going to hear about it. Foreign coverage of the news is out of the question when you have to have several segments on lip gloss and or how to pick a good plastic surgeon. I've been watching the news coverage of this disaster and it is pathetic. No one is asking any tough questions. Most of the "reporters" couldn't find their ass in the dark with a flashlight.
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Or a damn roadmap!
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I think I take back what I said, it appears we do need the assistance of other nations. Given that the world knew about the magnitude of this hurricane atleast 4 days before the hurricane hit the new orleans area, they had plenty of time to mobilize a recovery effort.
USN Comfort set sail 4 days after it hit landfall because it took them 4 days to get the crew and supplies onboard. Various navy ships including an aircraft carrier have been sent to the region, again deployed after landfall. They're not projected to arrive until the 2nd or 3rd week of September. A bulk of the national guard from around the country is being deployed 3-4 days after it was obvious the national guard was needed to maintain order, and assist in the rebuild/rescue efforts. A better planned system would have had the rescue crews enroute and scheduled to arrive a day or two after it hit landfall.
What really makes wonder is that FEMA is part of the department of homeland security. If this is the best that the DHS can do, after 4 years of issuing all kinds of threat notices, color alerts and other lunacy, what will happen when some terrorist manages to launch another surprise attack?
I suppose the sacrifice of lives, property and land was worth it, because the world is safer from terrorists, cheaper oil and unmarried gay people.
-S
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