Green potatoes

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On 06/10/2014 06:36 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:

Hi Dan,
Or I eat what I want and to hell with the consequences.
And by the way, I chose what I ate. I believed the "healthy carbs" bull shit. I should have known better, but I liked what I was eating. Carbs are addictive.
And, guess what. I still eat too much and I am getting better. Wonder why that is? Do you suppose it is "what" I eat? No, couldn't be. Not a chance. I had to have hurt myself because I sit on my fat ass and eat too much! (2+2=3)
Eating too much and drug and allopath free since September 2013.
-T
No sign of any body parts falling off. Hmmm. Wonder why? Has nothing whatsoever to do with what I eat. Nope. Not a chance.
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     snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net (Dan.Espen) writes:

The conspiracy/victim thing is what gets to me. There is no denying that there is a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about diet. There always has been, and probably always will be. But taking things to the point where potato farmers are out to poison us all is just silly.
Thinking about diabetes and convenience foods tends to take my mind to all the 20th century futurists (and fiction authors) who predicted by now we'd drop food and live on sugar pills packed with vitamins.
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Drew Lawson What would Brian Boitano do?

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Todd wrote:

There was no argument.
How do you feed the world for the next 50 years without heavy reliance on farming and consuming high carb crops?
D
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On 11/06/2014 8:36 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

There will be no sensible response. As a beef producer (grass fed only) and someone who comes from a long line of potato growers and from an immediate family that owned a free range poultry business, I know that access to the type of food that Todd keeps wittering on about is both expensive and scarce even in first world societies.
We first worlders are OK, stuff the rest of the world....................
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On 06/10/2014 10:21 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

Hi Fran,
It truly is more expensive. As techniques develop, and demand increases, and alternative marketing vehicles expand, price will come down. It is also cheaper to buy it directly from the farmer or a CO-OP. The "pick your own" farms want $2.00/lb for tomatoes, where as the supermarket wants $4.00/lb for organic.
Also, it is not scarce in the United States. If it is scare where you hail from, then you should be able to get a reasonable price for your product. Supply and demand. So, I do not understand your argument.
As for the "First Worlders", there are some that incorrectly believe that they are the ones with the Diabetes as they are the ones that over eat. The PI is getting pasted with the stuff.
-T
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On 12/06/2014 6:41 AM, Todd wrote:

No you don't but then I'm beginnign towonder if that is jsut willful obtuseness on your part.

The WHO reports that T2 diabetes is happening in places where obesity and falling levels of physical activity occur.
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On 06/11/2014 09:34 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

You said the stuff was scarce. I told you that is the USA is was not. Just more expensive. I buy it all the time. Nothing obtuse.
And I repeat, grass fed beef, if it is scarce in your parts, why are you not getting a better price for it? Is your government imposing some kind of artificial prince controls?

Be careful of such political correctness. WHO would never call out the folks that brought us T2. Everybody waxes everybody palms. Its in the air. Its because you are lazy and fat. Just be careful of what the special interests. I was and am still pissed at how much money is being make off us T2's.
I will repeat what I wrote you about the Hanza:
There is a nice article on the Hadza over at: http://originalpeople.org/hadza-people-diabetes/
Many in public health believe that a major culprit is our sedentary lifestyle. Faced with relatively few physical demands today, our bodies burn fewer calories than they evolved to consume — and those unspent calories pile up over time as fat. The World Health Organization, in discussing the root causes of obesity, has cited a “decrease in physical activity due to the increasingly sedentary nature of many forms of work, changing modes of transportation and increasing urbanization.”
This is a nice theory. But is it true? To find out, my colleagues and I recently measured daily energy expenditure among the Hadza people of Tanzania, one of the few remaining populations of traditional hunter-gatherers. Would the Hadza, whose basic way of life is so similar to that of our distant ancestors, expend more energy than we do?
Our findings, published last month in the journal PLoS ONE, *indicate that they don’t*, suggesting that inactivity is not the source of modern obesity.
-T
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On 06/10/2014 03:36 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

The one about Diabetes being a rich world problem

Heavy reliance on farming and low carb crops.
-T
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David Hare-Scott wrote: ...

the same way it was done before much of the current nonsense came along. diversity, smaller farms and people working together as an actual community.
i've seen good results here on not much room at all, no reason it can't work on a larger scale other than needing more people who would want to do it. enough people get hungry enough and perhaps they will want to do it too.
songbird
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On 11/06/2014 12:02 PM, songbird wrote:

Cuba is a good example of those sorts of techniques. I can't imagine too many people in the first world being willing volunteers for the sort of hard work that involves.
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On 06/10/2014 07:02 PM, songbird wrote:

Hi Songbird,
1+
Saw a documentary on Netflix about a guy that did full circle farming. He got $3000 per acre (if he is to be believed). Where as his neighbors only got about $450 per acre. It is a great model. And the food tastes so much better.
I do believe the guy said what he was really doing was raising grass.
Grass-->cows-->sheep-->turkeys (eat the bugs in the poop) -->chickens (bugs)-->plow poop under-->raise vegetables, -->back to grass. If I remember correctly, he had six fields under constant rotation. Move out the cows, move in the sheep, etc..
I hate lamb from the supermarket. I wonder if I would like his. He said he couldn't keep up with demand. Which is what happens when food tastes good.
-T
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songbird wrote:

There just won't be enough food. What is so hard to understand about 2/3 of the worlds food calories come from carbohdrates, mainly grain grown on farms? If you stop doing that what do they eat? Do it like it was done before? What was that, when? When the entire world population was a few million? How does that scale up to 7 billion? Where does the land come from?

Stop with the idealism for a second, take a breath and look at the figures. You and Todd are both in fantasy land.
D
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On 06/11/2014 04:35 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

Hi David,
I just don't see it. That same farm land can grow other crops. The techniques Songbird and I talk about can incorporated in various degrees.
Think of this, the California wine industry has almost completely switched to organic techniques. The reason being that the entire vineyard is consistent, one end to the other. They no longer have one end that is more sour than the other, etc.. And, they get a higher yield. Cheaper too.
So basically, if we are to feed more people, this is an idea that is coming. It is a matter of practicality, not idealism.
Just out of curiosity, do you use compose in your garden or ammonium nitrate? Which gets the better, more consistent yield?
-T
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On 12/06/2014 6:33 AM, Todd wrote:

No it can't. Country where wheat and sheep are produced cannot grow vegetables. Our land, where we currently produce beef cattle, could not grow vegetables. We also cannot grow grapes successfully either.
It's all abbut the class of land (which relates to the quality of the land) and rainfall/water. The former is not high quality enough for the production of vegetables and the latter is just plain old deficient.

That paragraph makes no sense.
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On 06/11/2014 09:15 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

Hi Fran,
You are correct. And, I also think you misunderstand me.
What I meant was that where wheat is grown, other crops can be substituted. Depends on consumer demand. Wheat farmer don't make squat off of wheat. Who grows wheat in the desert anyway? That is for livestock.
By the way, you can grow hemp on the same land as wheat with half the water and apparently, if you listen to their advocates, make twice the money per acre.
Where sheep and cattle are typically raised (my Nevada for example), the ground is only capable of producing cellulose (grass). The livestock then converts it into food for us.
But not always, you aught to try some of Fallon's cantaloupes. Grown right in the middle of the desert. (No doubt livestock scat has a great deal to do with it.)
In California's central valley (over the hill from us, the land of fruits and nuts -- I wonder if Higgs will catch that), they have all kinds of vegetables, wheat, etc., all mixed together.
On full circle farms, the do grow cows, sheep, turkeys, chickens, vegetables, and grass. But, that is on land with more water than our desert.
By the way, Fallon is about and hour and half drive away. None of us here can grow a cantaloupe for our lives! Life is cruel that way.
-T
Thank you by the way. Ranching in very difficult work and you don't get paid squat for it. Grass fed too! I have a lot of admiration for what you do.
Speaking of Fallon, Mori-Lahatton runs a ranch and his own butcher house. Grass fed only. He says he only gets 2 lbs a day versus 3 lbs a day with the chemicals. His cows are allowed to walk around and are not penned up where they can only lift theirs head up and down to eat.
He hangs his beef the old fashioned way. Tastes so good, you would not think it was the same animal as in the grocery store! And he and his whole family work the butt off.
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On 12/06/2014 2:45 PM, Todd wrote:

Wheat country is dry country. Grain grows well in that country which is why it is grown there. Other crops can be grown there but they need irrigation and that is not an option in so many grain growing areas.
Depends on consumer demand.

The only person to mention growing wheat in the desert is you. Wheat grows in dry country but I've never heard of anyone growing wheat in a desert.

Not according to the NSW Department of Primary Industry: http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/232823/industrial-hemp-a-new-crop-for-nsw.pdf.pdf
Hemp needs irrigation but wheat does not in NSW. Also the wheat growing areas would be too hot for hemp to be grown successfully.

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Fran Farmer wrote:

yes, they actually improved their health after the initial decline in calories, (basically they lost a meal a day for a few years until the veggie patches came into production).
the thing is, that if you get everyone to put in a few hours here or there it isn't that bad. right now we are two people who sort of garden a few thousand square feet, it's not intensively done or even with a lot of fiddling, and while we may not have perfect results it still provides a great deal of food.
like right now, i'm harvesting strawberries so that's more than we'll ever be able to eat fresh. making freezer jam today and after one more large round of picking/processing i'll probably call people and let them know they can come pick when they want, first come first served. critters are eating plenty of them too.
songbird
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Accepting wikipedia's numbers for the sake of debate, New York City (proper) has an area of 304.8 square miles and a population of 8,405,837. According to my calculator, that works out to about 1010 square feet per person. Take out the space used by roads, walkways, parks and non-flattop buildings. How well do you think they will eat if they put in a few hours each, but you take away the farm influx?
And at ~27k/sqmi, NYC doesn't even come close to getting on wikipedia's list of top sities by population density. Looks like Manila works out to about 250 sqft/person.
What you say can be done, but it cannot be done for the current global population.
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Drew Lawson wrote: ...

why is it valid to say there will be no farm inflow from the surrounding area?
if it doesn't happen that we can transport food into large cities then for sure people will be moving out. there are vast areas of the surrounds that could be used again for mixed agriculture. they are fallow in large part now because most people are happy with processed packaged chemfoods (derived from corn, soy, wheat and rice).

assuming people stay in place. as you probably know, when shit hits the fan, people start to migrate. when the sea levels increase we'll already have huge movements of people and will be forced to rebuild large chunks of infrastructure, wouldn't it be great if we actually built them with sustainability, efficiency and better land use policies for people who will walk, garden and have green spaces?
songbird
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On 06/11/2014 02:32 PM, songbird wrote:

Hi Songbird,
The surrounding area is full of farms!
Some NYC folks even grow their own stuff on their roofs! Great hobby and yummy.
Watched a documentary where they are trying to fish farm in their basements to cut the transportation time (bad fish stick!) on fish to market. Don't know how well that will turn out.
-T
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