Obesity has a variety of causes and is not due to just high blood sugar. The correlation between obesity and T2 diabetes is well documented in the US by the CDC and in the rest of the world by the WHO.
Just in case you are honestly puzzled about why you annoy the shit out of most people it is because you never actually make a case for your opinions but waffle on as if you have said something meaningful. You did this with climate change and you started doing it with T2D. I called a halt in both of these because you flatly refused to produce an argument or listen to one.
Then foolishly I tried again. My fault, I thought you deserved a chance, that you might have learned something. I was wrong. Sorry everybody.
You simply don't understand what it means to produce a reasoned case supported by evidence. You continually give vague and irrelevant opinions as if they are useful facts. You studiously ignore any requests for specifics. You shift the goalposts. You cherry pick your data. You indulge in wishful thinking and call it explanation. You have all the arsenal of weapons of the true zealot who is totally immune to reasoned discourse.
So yes I am frustrated and so is Fran. No, the frustration has nothing to do with agreeing with your view of the world, I don't get frustrated with people just because they hold different views, I try to learn from them.
The problem is your UNWILLNESS TO JUSTIFY your different views, that is supremely frustrating because nobody can learn anything. But I am probably wasting my time typing as that distinction will be lost on you too. Back to gardening. Please.
D
You said the stuff was scarce. I told you that is the USA is was not. Just more expensive. I buy it all the time. Nothing obtuse.
And I repeat, grass fed beef, if it is scarce in your parts, why are you not getting a better price for it? Is your government imposing some kind of artificial prince controls?
Be careful of such political correctness. WHO would never call out the folks that brought us T2. Everybody waxes everybody palms. Its in the air. Its because you are lazy and fat. Just be careful of what the special interests. I was and am still pissed at how much money is being make off us T2's.
I will repeat what I wrote you about the Hanza:
There is a nice article on the Hadza over at:
Many in public health believe that a major culprit is our sedentary lifestyle. Faced with relatively few physical demands today, our bodies burn fewer calories than they evolved to consume ? and those unspent calories pile up over time as fat. The World Health Organization, in discussing the root causes of obesity, has cited a ?decrease in physical activity due to the increasingly sedentary nature of many forms of work, changing modes of transportation and increasing urbanization.?
This is a nice theory. But is it true? To find out, my colleagues and I recently measured daily energy expenditure among the Hadza people of Tanzania, one of the few remaining populations of traditional hunter-gatherers. Would the Hadza, whose basic way of life is so similar to that of our distant ancestors, expend more energy than we do?
Our findings, published last month in the journal PLoS ONE, *indicate that they don?t*, suggesting that inactivity is not the source of modern obesity.
-T
Any kind that doesn't come from a test tube.
Grow cows. I love to eat cows too. What a silly argument.
Anywhere natural. Cows, avocados, coconuts, etc.. This isn't rocket science.
Hmmmmmm.. Maybe because he is from the Peoples Republic of California. (I may have him mixed up with Higgs.)
You don't know much about California or the United States. Mexico is our neighbor. Nevada and California have little Mexican Grocery stores all over the place. The rest of the country in varying degrees too.
Do you ever go to a grocery store? Just look in the produce section. Would you like a specific list of what I eat?
By the way, I eat ZERO grains. They will first maim me then kill me. And I am just fine.
Feed the grains and the rest of the plant to cows. I will eat the cows!
-T
The fat bigots and the special interests would have you believe that.
By the way, the initial stages of T2, the insulin resistance causes you to put on weight. They didn't mention that, did they. It is all part of their cover up. "Oh you have T2 because you are fat!" It is the other way around.
By the way, thank you for the Australian doctor who went up against the special interests and got ulcers treated as an infection.
You should have heard the name calling from the medical community! They made a lot of money off of treating but not healing ulcers. But the guy persevered and we now can finally treat ulcers. (Herbalists always could, but they are just "wack jobs" you know.)
Same thing is going on here with T2. We need an Australian doctor to come here and set the special interests right again.
-T
Oh brother David. You are just not use to dealing with others who disagree with you. No argument or reference would rise to meet your standards. You just know you are right and other who disagree with you annoy you, references, studies or no references or studies. If we don't agree with you, we are "Deniers". At times, you are not always a gentleman about it either.
Yes, now back to gardening. By the way, thank you for the help with the zukes. You are a treasure trove of information.
You are from California, aren't you? Fran wondered why I though you'd have a Mexican grocery store near by. Might have got you mixed up with Higgs.
-T
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
--Mark Twain
You didn't actually read the cites there did you? Or if you did, you clearly didn't understand the more scholarly ones that show that there is a genetic preponderance amongst hunter gatherers to develop type 2 diabetes and why that is so.
Hint: That preponderance has NOTHING to do with carbohydrates or the consumption of them.
There is absolutely no evidence to support that claim. There ARE lots and lots sites and cites that say that but not one I've yet read could be considered to be reputable or withstand even basic scrutiny.
Do you actually read what you write to see if it makes any sense?
You do write a lot of drivel that has nothing to do with what is being discussed. You might make more sense if you bothered to try to understand what is being said to you, what you are being asked and why you are being asked something but more especially you might have a better understanding if you bothered to actually READ your own cites.
YOU gave cites that show that hunter gatherers have a known preponderance for developing T2 diabetes.
Their tendency to develop T2 diabetes once they follow a first world diet has nothing to do with just eating carbohydrates ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN CITES.
And if you really do insist on being all Paleo because you still choose to believe it, then you will also stop stuffing your face to excess and you will get out and do some exercise.
The reasons why you should stop the excess stuffing of your face and get out and do some exercise are listed in those very Paleo cites YOU gave. Read them.
Do you read what you write to see if it passes the logic or sanity test?
"Fat bigots" say that high blood sugar is the cause of obesity? These mysterious "special interest" unknowns are involved in some conspiracy saying that the only cause of obesity is high blood sugar.
All those people conspiring.
And another conspiracy theory.
You'd probably not like most Aussie Doctors. They'd tell you to get real and stop seeing conspiracies everywhere.
Fran,
You only looked at the sections of the Paleo that you agree with. You totally missed the part about the carbs. And, yes, I do exercise more.
I don't think anything I could write you would rise to the level that you require to get past your preconceive notions.
Basically, here it is in a nutshell. I got T2 Diabetes. I figured out how to deal with it. I am healing. I am telling others how as well because it is the decent thing to do.
As my GP allopath told me when he first saw me, your ate too may carbohydrates and you burned your self out. That is an injury.
I have lived through this. I know what I am talking about. And, I am healing.
If I am so full of it, why would I be drug free and healing?
If you ever burn yourself out as well, see if you can find me. I will tell you how I healed myself. You can take it or leave it.
-T
You can't grow Paleo beef in cereal country. Paleo beef is grass fed beef.
Grass does not grow in sufficient quantities in cereal growing country to feed beef. Beef that is raised in cereal growing country is all feed lot, grain fed beef. Paleos don't eat grain fed beef because it's not true to the Paleo way of eating.
And yes, it IS indeed a silly argument because you don't know what is involved or the practicalities of what you are advocating.
Fluffy answer.
You do have mixed him up with Higgs or with David Ross.
LOL.
I've seen at least a thousand US TV shows dating from as far back as the
1950s where cowboys or Indians or Mexican banditos or Texan Ranchers or outlaws or Mexican illegals or posses crossed the Rio Grande!And of course I do know a bit about American literature. Perhaps you've heard of Cormac MaCarthy's Border trilogy? I believe that at least one movie arose from those wonderful books.
I assume you do know that these books were set in Mexico and Texas? The Mexico that sits to the South of Texas, USA?
Nevada and California have little
Gosh! I couldn't guess that from your comment that David might have a Mexican grocery nearby or from the million US TV shows I've seen........................
Don't you know that Paleos are not supposed to eat grain fed beef?
Grain fed beef is a late 20th century invention. Paleolithic man never, ever, fed beef with grain.
Wheat country is dry country. Grain grows well in that country which is why it is grown there. Other crops can be grown there but they need irrigation and that is not an option in so many grain growing areas.
Depends on consumer demand.
The only person to mention growing wheat in the desert is you. Wheat grows in dry country but I've never heard of anyone growing wheat in a desert.
Not according to the NSW Department of Primary Industry:
Hemp needs irrigation but wheat does not in NSW. Also the wheat growing areas would be too hot for hemp to be grown successfully.
Sorry Higgs, brain fart on my part there as I wasn't very clear. The character lives in Santa Teresa but the real life place is (supposedly) Santa Barbara. The author is Sue Grafton and she writes what is called 'the alphabet series' ('A' is Alibi etc, etc through many books beginning with each letter of the alphabet). They are rollicking yarns
- not particularly well written but funny and women in particular seem to enjoy them because the main character is a semi competent female PI who gets in a mess frequently.
Sure, they could switch crops, but lacking a mandate why would they? People like wheat. People will buy wheat. The farmers could switch over to amaranth and probably get a good yield. And the market will say, "What's this shit?" Then go to the next farmer and buy wheat.
Farms (as opposed to agrobusiness operations) are cash strapped as it is. They can't afford to switch from high value crops to low value crops. And agrobusiness will follow the profit no matter what.
Create the demand, and then we'll talk.
Tell that to Tzar Nicholas.
He seems to believe that some recent (alleged) trend in growing grapes is going to revolutionize crop yields.
I assume that he is ignorant of the factors that brought the increases since WW2: industrial farming, ammonium nitrate and monocrop megafarms (mostly crowing the "carbs" he rails against).
I'm not a great fan of the current state of food production, but I recognize that it is a current necesity. Most current starvation is caused by economic/political factors. Reverting the methods of production would bring starvation caused by actual lack of food.
Interesting response from someone who advicates more hybridization of our food crops.
Perhaps you can show me a cite for a means to raise cattle that produces anywhere the same calories/acre that grain does. Without that, your proposal still reduces the effective food supply.
Cows can be frost tollerant, at least. Do you have any other suggestions that can work in North Dakota or Alberta? High fat crops have a tendency to be tropical. One exception is nuts, which won't work for the increasing segment with nut allergies. The other exceptions are grains (source of most vegetable oils), which you denounce.
I thought he was in Oz, though I have trouble keeping track of things like that.
*You* are proposing that non-grain produce can replace grains, with equal food value, using the same crop land, as a global practice. I don't see it as unfair to ask you to specify which crops have this potential.
Using wiki as the source...
Total world land mass is estimated to be 57,505,693.767 sq mi
and the total world population is estimated at 7.169 billion
So using some math, correctly I hope:
57505693.767 / 7169000000 = 0.00802143866187752825 sq miles0.0080214 sq miles = 5.256939 acres per person.
And that is counting all land mass, some which would be hard to inhabit if at all. It just won't work, too many people...
Hi Fran,
Actually, I don't know that. I follow Mark Sisson Mr. Paleo himself and a fellow diabetic):
And Steve Cooksey (another fellow diabetic):
Neither one these guys go into that. You are just suppose to approximate and not obsess on it. See Mark's comments below.
And, just feed the cows the whole plant. Feeding them straight grain gives them ulcers. And no one is suppose to eat sick animals. That is what vultures and ants (carrion eaters) are for.
You are making this way harder than it has to be. Anywhere you can raise wheat, you can also raise grass. I presume that is how you do it on your ranch.
Here is a great reference from Mark Sisson (Mr. Paleo himself) on grass fed versus grain fed beef:
My favorite part is:
I, ahem, want to eat delicious animals and buying delicious animals promotes their production
And: For me, the clearly superior version of beef comes from the grass-fed and ?finished cows raised by ranchers committed to providing excellent stewardship of both soil and cattle. Next, cows that have been grass-fed, pastured, and grain-finished by similarly committed producers with similarly maintained soil quality.
After that? Just eat beef. Whatever you can get on a regular basis. Grab the occasional grass-fed cut when you can, see how it tastes, and figure out if it?s worth it to you.
I would be curious, if you actually read the article (you don't have to), if, from your experience as a producer of grass fed beef, if you disagree with any of his comments.
-T
You are not following. All produce we eat has been hybridized for one thing or another.
When I say "test tube", I mean synthetic. Not found in nature.
I also include in that "gene splicing" (a.k.a GMO). When you hybridize a plant, you are doing it the old fashioned way. Not splicing genes from a weasel onto a dove.
You missed the point. On soil that won't grow anything else other than cellulose (grass), grow cows (livestock) on it. Use the good soil to grow other stuff.
Every summer out here in Nevada, since the Fed took over managing it from the ranchers, we have range land fires. Some of the localities bring in sheep to mow the cheat grass off the hill sides to help prevent these fires. AND YOU GET TO EAT THEM AFTERWARDS! It is a good use of land that would not otherwise grow anything edible. (Lamb -- YUK! Okay, other gets to eat them.)
-T
When you switch that land from growing grain to grazing cattle, you reduce the yield in terms of calories/acre. The world still has billions of people to feed, and you have just reduced the food supply. Where do you make up that deficit?
I much prefer steak to bread, but I'm not as comfortable as you appear to be with suggesting that we willfully require others to starve.
Remember, this whole subthread started with you saying that we should stop farming grain, and David asking how you suggest feeding the 7 billion humans without grain. You have yet to address that question.
I'm happy for you that you like your new diet and lifestyle. However, that does not address the question.
Hi Fran,
I looked up the Aussie doctor: Dr. Barry J. Marshal.
Thank goodness he persisted and took on the special interests. Oh they called him every name in the book. The special interests went BERSERK! They stood to lose ton of money (and did -- ha ha).
By the way, reducing acid in your stomach causes the bacteria that causes ulcers to thrive. Hmmmm. Let me adjust my aluminum foil hat. Conspiracies everywhere!
If you do not think this crap goes on all the time in the medical community, then you are in for a rude surprise. They are about "treating", not "healing". I found this out the hard way with Diabetes.
If you think I am wrong, look up the side effects of statins. My favorite is "statin-induced rhabdomyolysis", which first cripples you (ruins your muscles), then maims you (kidney failure), eventually it kills you.
Now, try to find a single autopsy study that links serum cholesterol with arteriosclerosis. Give up? I can show you lots of the opposite.
Luckily, both my ER and GP allopaths do not follow the cholesterol fraud. Which is good because I can trust what they say. (I still double check them.) And, neither one is an Aussie. (Occasionally, American doctors can think for themselves too.)
By the way, the doctor that found the real cause of arteriosclerosis (homocystein/inflammation) was Dr. Kilmer McCully. The medical community persecuted him so bad he had to go to court just to hold a position as a coroner! You see, Allopths don't make any money off the sale of B vitamins, folate in particular.
Is my aluminum foil hat (far more stylish than tin foil hats) on too tight?
By the way, even paranoid have enemies.
-T
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