Does anyone know the relative pound-cut of the standard shellac? I've
found that the sealer is a 2lb. cut on their website. When spraying
the standard shellac I've had to thin it some, so I was thinking of
just buying the sealer and using that. But then I thought again and
figured I could just buy a gallon of the regular shellac and a gallon
of denatured alcohol and cut it myself and save a few bucks. Any
thoughts? Concerns? I'm just looking for a little affirmation here
3 pound cut is what you get out of the can for the standard, althouugh
I've seen 4 and 5 pound cut at paint stores, and the sanding sealer, out
of the can should be a 2 pound cut.
The sealer is dewaxed and works well when sprayed and can indeed be used
as the finish coat. I often used the amber 3 pound cut, thinned to a 1
1/2 pound cut with isopropyl alcohol (depending upon the temp/humidity)
prayed on for the final coat.
There are quit a few threads on this in years past if you google.
No problem ... it was just that there is much more in depth info
available in some of those threads than in this one. :)
If you are not planning on using anything but shellac, buy the three
pound cut and thin it down to 1 1/2 with alcohol (I prefer to use that
cut when spraying, but YMMV).
You really don't need the dewaxed, if that is all you're using ... the
dewaxed being essential for compatibility with lacquer, poly and other
top coat finishes added post shellac application.
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:52:31 -0800 (PST), the infamous Jay Pique
Sprayed shellac or lacquer are pretty much your only hope, then.
Anything else would reek up the place for a month.
We have too many high sounding words, and too few actions that correspond
with them. -- Abigail Adams, letter to John Adams, 1774
On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:43:33 -0800 (PST), the infamous Jay Pique
I'd want to find out the exact solvent they used before trying to
dilute the canned crap to ward off any strange reactions. YMMV
(Yeah, I know. "Alcohol is alcohol", but...
Why aren't you mixing your own from flake, Jay? It's cheaper, ou can
control the exact color by the flake, and you can make it quicker or
slower to dry via the solvent (DNA for quicker, ISO for slower.)
Besides, it's plumb funner!
http://www.shellacshack.com/purchase-shellac-flakes.html These ain't
Paddylac prices <sigh>, but they're better than the price from the old
Paddylac site. I sure wish O'Deen had kept that. They want more than
quadruple the price he got. www.shellac.net Used to be Paddy's.
We have too many high sounding words, and too few actions that correspond
with them. -- Abigail Adams, letter to John Adams, 1774
Just buy it and go. Shellac is a finish that doesn't desegregate, so
you cannot thin it to much. It might make you have to put more coats
or possibly affect your finish a bit, but it is almost impossible to
ruin shellac when thinning.
And since it resolvates, you don't have to worry about any attempts to
repair. You can repair or touch up to your hearts content.
Actually, alcohol isn't alcohol. When using alcohol to think shellac,
you should only use anhydrous alcohol. It mixes better, sprays
better, gives a better final product and keeps application problems to
Any premium brand anhydrous alcohol can be used successfully to thin
the Zinsser product lines of shellac. I have been using the Sherwin
Williams brand for years with no problems at all.
Spend the money; get the right stuff.
While YMMV, I usually cut the Zinsser sanding sealer by about 30- 50%
( !!! ) and spray it rapidly when redoing kitchens or baths, or on
new cabinets. This does two things; it sprays out like water so if
you are experienced you can lay that stuff out fast and accurately.
If you do get a run or sag, it is easy to sand off because it dries so
The second thing is that >because< it dries so fast, it cuts down the
opportunity of finish contamination by airborne "stuff" that is always
in the air on the job site. Less nibs, less cleanup or sanding = less
If my surfaces are new cabinets, I check to see if the SS raised the
grain or made the surface rough (from not enough sealer). If they are
smooth I will spray a lacquer or conversion lacquer over the sanding
sealer without sanding after about 4 hours.
Depending on your project, you could prime, touch sand, and apply two
or three finish coats all in a day using the right combination of prep
The beauty with conversion lacquers is that successive coats, if done
in a reasonable timeframe, really become one coat. I mean that stuff
sticks to itself beautifully and is that is also my biggest beef about
WB stuff... although I have been getting some pretty nice results with
clear MinWax acrylic. That stuff dries pretty hard so I get a nice cut
from a fresh piece of sandpaper.
I am currently working (as we speak) on a rather interesting project
where I made bamboo door trim for a vanity on my cnc, out of cherry,
just so I can SS the stuff, them paint semi-gloss black, just so I can
knock it off the high-lights... then clear coat only the
bamboo....*damned interior decorators...LOL*
Oh.. and that little 35" vanity is getting a Passion Rouge quartz top
(pette) with a screaming white porcelain undermount bowl.
I really, really like the stuff from these guys:
Scroll down to their "finishes and sealers" button on the left hand
They will send you a free catalogue, and if you have a business phone
number showing you are in "the business", they will send you a free
It is without doubt the finest pre-cat poly conversion lacquer I have
ever used. And the final finish when hardened and cured will rival
most air cured post-cat lacquers.
Plus.... if you hit a wall, you can talk to Dave, the owner and
proprietor who tests and is in charge of mixing and designing all the
finishing products he sells.
When I had a lot of refinishing of entry doors to do at a local golf
course/country club, I decided to try their stripper, and bought a
five. Their stuff makes Klean Strip and its cousins look like water.
I brushed my arm against some of their stripper that was on a door
frame and it raised white blisters in about 10 minutes. Good stuff!
Note too, they sell a very good professional quality metal lacquer in
a spray can that is quite good for all metals, but really great for
brass door hardware, hinges, knockers, mail slots, etc.
At the bottom of the first page, it is listed as "Exterior Fast Dry
Polyurethane GA" (Spray forumla). I have used gloss and satin.
Don't know if this will work due to the wrap:
I have also used the second one down on page two, the " Kwick Kote
High Solids- GA " for a high build finish. This stuff is sex. Check
it out.... 30% solids!
You MUST buff/cut it down though as it will be too thick otherwise.
I have probably shot a fifty+ gallons or so of that first selection
and love it. I always spray it, and it is everything they say it is
and more. I recoat in 30 minutes, and on exterior doors I can build 5
coats in a day with no problems.
It thins well, and a the wildman that I know in Phoenix (that actually
introduced me to this stuff a few years ago) cuts it by 50 - 75% with
no finish failures. I personally have never cut by more than 50%.
But it shows you how forgiving the product can be.
I have shot this with a CAS HVLP as well as my Fuji HVLP. No problems
with either. Just make sure you thin with good, paint store lacquer
like Sherwin Williams of BM, or others. NO Home Depot crap. They are
good for gun wash, and not much else.
Note they sell this as a quick dry polyurethane. But when you read
the info, you can see that they claim that the subsequent coats will
melt into the first. They do! No witness lines on those next coats.
And unlike actual polyurethane, this stuff is repairable. In
practice, I cannot tell this stuff from lacquer when I spray it. But
the cured finish is quite hard, very abrasion resistant, and if the
exterior blend it has great UV resistance as well.
While I have not tried it, they are supposed to make a really kick ass
plain lacquer as well.
I hope you try it and let us know what you think.
On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:20:59 -0800 (PST), the infamous
The Waterlox Original I use has more like 20% solids, their Marine has
26% solids, but their Oil Modified Urethane Satin goes up to 46%
solids. So there! ;)
(No, I'm not saying that you should use anyone's urinestain.)
That's _always_ nice, isn't it? Do you have a turntable for spraying
doors or do you do them vertically?
75% thinning? That's truly amazing!
There's a difference in lacquer thinners? I've never shot finish and
generally just use lacquer thinner for cleaning prior to finishing.
Yeah, they call it "maintainable", which is very, very unusual for
It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare;
it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.
Ah, well I did think of one more thing. I wonder if you have any idea how well
holds up to the long term effects of being in contact with the oils and sweat of
for example, on a computer desktop or the arms of a chair? I've stopped using
nitrocellulose lacquer for things like this because it doesn't hold up well at
breaks down and gets gummy, and you can scrape right it off with your
fingernail. Do you
happen to know if this product will stand up to that kind of abuse?
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
I have used this stuff for anything my clients would let me put it
on. I have refinished table tops, exterior doors, counters in a
bathroom, you name it.
In each application, NO problems. It is abrasion resistant, UV
resistant and protects the wood quite well. Applied correctly and to
the right thickness (finished thickness not less than 3 mil) it should
I put it on the front door of the Fair Oaks Country Club as well as
the entry access doors to the members areas and dressing rooms about
five years ago.
In five years of use, the doors look great. I hit them pretty hard on
the price of refinishing the doors as I had to strip off a few layers
of varnish, poly, and who knows what to get to bare wood. The finish
is holding up so well though that they are wanting me to do more when
the budget permits.
Take away all the oily, sticky hands from folks that range from sweaty
guys coming in from playing tennis and golf. Take away the fact that
on one set of these doors the folks (non latching double doors) prefer
to bang into the doors with their butts instead of pushint them open
using the brass push plate. (They don't spill their cocktails.)
That's not the worst of it. The maintenance people have done
everything wrong you can do to clean the grime off these doors. I
went out there about two years after I had finished their doors as I
was angling to refinish their large conference table. I found that
the cleaning maintenance guys were cleaning the doors with 409 every
day, allowing window cleaner to drip onto the door as they cleaned the
windows, and worse, when finished they applied a hefty coat of lemon
I was stunned. I had given them a list of things to do to clean them
as well as accepted cleaners. My number was on the list to call if
none of the stuff I recommended worked. After consulting Dave at
Kwickkleen, I issued a letter reascending my warranty.
What's so bad about lemon oil? There are many different versions, but
all of them should be used as mosquito repellent, and that's it. Some
have lemon oil in them, some do not. Real lemon oil has a high level
of acidity, but it probably wouldn't hurt a poly finish if it was only
used once in a while. But the bad part of it is that "lemon oil" is
actually mineral oil that is scented or has a little of lemon oil in
it, or both.
Mineral oil is a petroleum product. Petroleum products destroy any
wood finish I know of. I have even seen leaking oil from a small
appliance eat through "bar top" finish.
However, the good news is that neither cleaner or oils did any harm to
the Kwickleen stuff even after being applied daily. The WD40 they
sprayed on the hinges and locks didn't seem to phase it either. That
really sold me!
The last time I saw the breakfast table top I put it on (finished it
in the client's garage with my Fuji HVLP) it looked great. The folks
eat there all the time, never at the dining room table, so it gets all
the wear and tear of eating plus cleaning after. For that top, the
finish mil was about 5, which was achieved with about 10 coats over
two days of time.
<<Generally>> speaking, I thin that stuff about 10 - 30% depending on
temp and humidity. When I was refinishing entryway doors, I was able
to strip, wash and apply 5 coats of finish in a day and rehang the
A word of caution on this stuff. I tried brushing this stuff, and I
might as well have glued the brush to the wood. It goes off FAST. I
am fine brushing finishes that have long layout times like latex,
poly, or oil based stuff. But you can count the seconds you have to
get it right when you brush or pad this stuff. Their regular (non
spray formula - which I have sprayed!) may be different.
I am ONLY speaking of the spray formula. This isn't a problem for me
as almost all high performance finishes are made to be sprayed, some
spray only, these days.
Yeah, me too. There are too many other finishes out there that leave
it in the dust. I have no romance of connecting to the old ways of
finishing, ESPECIALLY if it comes as a compromise in performance. Not
one bit. One warranty call on my finish, and if it is the fault of
the finish I won't use it again.
I still shoot some Old Masters lacquer in occasion. Some folks don't
want to pay a few buck more for the good stuff, and that is certainly
their prerogative. The OM product isn't hard to find (I buy mine at
Benjamin Moore) and is easy to shoot and easy to build. It finishes
nicely and give good performance. No warranty from me though, except
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