A lady was browsing in a craftsman's shop when she saw a side chair she liked.
"How much is the chair?" she asked.
"Oh, about $200", the carpenter said, scratching his head.
"That's great!", the woman replied. "What would you charge for a set of eight?"
"Well, lessee", the carpenter thought some more. "That would be about $3000."
"Three thousand! But eight times $200 is only $1600!"
"Well... that's right, but the first one was fun!"
:=)
merle
Wed, Dec 8, 2004, 6:56am (EST-1) snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Todd=A0Fatheree) says: I'm saying that a table made of ebony would command a higher price in the market. My main point of disagreement is that I don't start with "cost" and work my way up to "price". I start with "price" (what the market is willing to pay) and work backward, taking "cost" out to end up with profit.
OK, I can understand an ebony table costing more. Stands to reason, because ebony costs more.
And, now I think I can see what you're saying, in how you figure. But, I just can't agree with it.
The guy who put the new roof on my house quoted me $1600 (which is what I actually paid). He came out, got on the roof, measured every which way, discussed types of shingles available, their cost differences, a couple of minor roof repairs, then did his figuring. That's when he came up with the $1600. He obviously figured in cost. We shook hands, he sent out a guy (one), a few days later, he helped the next day, and it was done. Not a line was laid out, but the shingles look like they were laid out with a ruller. Excellent. They even took off the shigles, roofing felt, and cleaned it all up later. We were both happy.
I just don't see any other reasonable way to figure it, and, as I see it, that would apply to custom furniture, or any other type of job, except those involving labor only.
JOAT Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind dont matter, and those who matter dont mind.
- Dr Seuss
And this is why woodworking will never gat past the hobby stage for me. I already have a job, thank you very much.
I'd put roofing in the category of "unskilled labor" and for good or bad, unskilled laborers get paid basically for their time (materials x markup + time x rate). In contrast, I put a good cabinet or furniture designer/maker into the skilled category. Skilled workers end up with a product that is not necessarily merely a product of materials plus time. A few highly skilled craftsmen can command prices higher than average on the basis of unique design, great execution, or just the fact that their name is on it. I've watched (on television) Dale Chihuly create stunning works of art with glass and I've seen his exhibits. Many of the individual pieces do not take long to make. Do you think he sells pieces at the cost of glass plus his hourly rate?
Here's something to consider. Let's say you've agree to build a table. You figure the material is going to cost $300 and have agreed on a price of $900 with the buyer. When you show up to buy the material, they're having a closeout sale and you get the material for $100 instead. From what I can tell, in your world and Swingman's world, your sales price just dropped. In my world, I'm still charging $900.
todd
Thu, Dec 9, 2004, 10:38pm (EST-1) snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Todd=A0Fatheree) claims: I'd put roofing in the category of "unskilled labor" and for good or bad, unskilled laborers get paid basically for their time (materials x markup + time x rate). In contrast,
Sounds like you've never done any roofing. Skilled, or unpskilled, it's hard labor. I've done it, and wouldn't care to do it again. In my view, "unskilled labor" usually means something that is a lot of hard work, only takes a little training or instruction to do, and the pay is usually lousy. Also, in my view, way too many people in suits and ties, getting paid some pretty serious bucks, just for telling somebody else to do the work that they don't know how to do themselves. I think most of those people should get a cut in pay and the money used to raise the people doing the "unskilled labor" jobs other people don't want to do. If people want to have big shot jobs, fine, just pay them less. And the people that want more money, fine, put them in the sewer maintenance jobs, and others, that nobody wants.
At a bare minimum, it would rate roofing as semi-skilled labor. But, when you get where you can lay out the shingles, in a straight line, without any reference at all, you would definitely be in the skilled labor category - my roofer was skilled.
You want unskilled labor? Go to any fast food resturant. Funny tho, because it's inside work, no hard labor, there's a bit of training, people call it "semi-skilled" labor. This with people who use a cash register that can figure out the correct price, and the correct change (because most of 'em can't make change of a dollar on their own), and those semi-skilled workers still screw it up.
Do you think he sells pieces at the cost of glass plus his hourly rate?
Maybe, but I don't know without asking him. What I know is, I've seen artistic, custom, stuff listed for big bucks - and not selling well. Maybe that's why so many of those artistes do one-off custom work, they know they won't get more than one idiot with money. And, most of it, I wouldn't buy if I had Biull Gates' money.
Here's something to consider. Let's say you've agree to build a table. You figure the material is going to cost $300 and have agreed on a price of $900 with the buyer. When you show up to buy the material, they're having a closeout sale and you get the material for $100 instead. From what I can tell, in your world and Swingman's world, your sales price just dropped. In my world, I'm still charging $900.
Can't speak for Swingman on that; but for myself, yeah, I'd probably do that. I know I'd appreciate someone doing it for me. I try to treat others like I'd like to be treated. Plus, I like to feel good about myself, and I know I'd feel bad if I didn't. I sure wouldn't be losing anything if I did, and whoever might do me a good turn one day. Anyway, good karma.
JOAT Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind dont matter, and those who matter dont mind.
- Dr Seuss
You figure the material is going to cost $300 and have agreed on a price of $900 with the buyer. When you show up to buy the material, they're having a closeout sale and you get the material for $100 instead. From what I can tell, in your world and Swingman's world, your sales price just dropped. In my world, I'm still charging $900.
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 12:39am (EST-1) snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com (Swingman) says: Actually, you did a damn good job of "speaking" for me ... thanks!
Yeah, I thought you'd agree. No prob.
JOAT Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind dont matter, and those who matter dont mind.
- Dr Seuss
You assume too much. I have, actually. A full tear-off and re-shingle. It's very hard work (I'm not looking forward to doing it again), but not terribly difficult to understand.
Sounds like you and Karl Marx would get along fine. Power to the people!
If you were doing this as a business, I hope your accountant has a good way of accounting for "karma" in the financial statement.
todd
Hmmm... I wonder how Robin Lee's accountant handles "karma" for Lee Valley? It seems to be one of their definitive business practices.
My bet is that they go to the bank with it.
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 22:38:14 -0600, "Todd Fatheree" wrote: Then you'd be wrong, particulrly in the case cited where one guy did the whole roof (& straight, w/out snapped lines). The level of skill between a roofer and cabinetmaker perhaps vary, but not to the degree that one (roofing) requires no (as in zero) skills.
The neighbor's house was done by an unskilled roofer. The shingles angle down along the rows such that eventually two rows come to a point. The tabs don't line up and basically, while it keeps the house dry (I htink), it looks like $hit.
Unique designs are a whole nuther level.
Renata
-snip-
Hmm ... Karma...
Tibetan for "able to sleep well at night"....
Cheers -
Rob
From time to time I visit art galleries, often dragged along by my wife. I prefer things I can recognize: "That is a painting of a tree in a meadow beside a bubbling brook. That other one is a painting of the Grand Canyon."
OTOH I've been to galleries that leave me wondering, "How can I break into this racket?" I could crush two beer cans and put them on the seat of an old rickety folding chair that has a moth-eaten sweater hanging on the back and title the exhibit, "Untitled", if some rich fool or the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) would pay me to do so. ;-)
Shingle tabs that don't line up? Shingle rows that come together? What boldness! What daring! That artist is a genius! Here is a check for $500,000.00 to enable him or her to continue his or her great series, "Man's Inhumanity to Adverbs."
-- Mark
This Cabinet did a fair price at the auction recently.
P.S.
"Honey, handcuffs or chokechain. One has to go."
Depends on how you quoted the price. If you just quoted $900 for the project, then I agree, you feel into a deal and made $200 more profit than originally anticipated.
However, if you priced it with the material cost broken out seperate from the labor, then the price SHOULD drop by the $200, otherwise you are essentiall STEALING from the customer
John
here's something else to consider. a great many of Chilhuly's pieces, especially the ones you see in ceilings and high up, are plastic.
On a simple, flat, square, good-condition roof, that might apply. I don't think I've ever seen such a roof.
The only other company I've dealt with with a similar customer-service obsession is Dillon Precision Products, makers of _very_ good reloading equipment. You call 'em with a question, the person who answers the phone knows the product line so well that they can talk about thread pitches on components, adjustment, troubleshooting, all that good stuff. Parts, even if you screwed up, are replaced for free. They shipped me an updated part that I never asked for, simply because my reloading press had the old design of it and they had improved the design of that part.
You don't get this kind of customer service from many companies, and when you do, it helps all concerned to share your positive experiences. I look forward to being able to buy something from Robin, based on what I've read here.
Dave Hinz
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 6:42am (EST-1) snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Todd=A0Fatheree) put out: You assume too much. I have, actually. A full tear-off and re-shingle. It's very hard work (I'm not looking forward to doing it again), but not terribly difficult to understand.
No, I didn't assume anything. What I said was, "sounds like". However, in your words, it also sounds like you've only done it once. No, it's "not" terribly difficult to understand. However, like many other things,"understanding" (knowing the theory) doesn't mean you're automatically good at it. Hell, I "understand" a lot of things, but that doesn't mean I could do them, or at least do them well, or as fast. =
Sounds like you and Karl Marx would get along fine. Power to the people!
Nope, I don't believe in Communism. The theory is good, but theres always people on top skimming the cream, without contributing anything, so in real-life I don't see it as a viable solution.
In all of my military assignments, within 6 months, I could do "any" duty my people had. Any problems came up, I could tell what they were, and how to correct them. I could watch any of my people for 5 minutes, or less, and tell if they were doing their job right or not. I've never seen any civilian supervisor, or manager, that could even come close to doing that. If you were doing this as a business, I hope your accountant has a good way of accounting for "karma" in the financial statement.
It's an intangible, but it's called customer relations. I know if I had someone not take off $100 on materials, and I found out about it, I would be inclined not to deal with them again. On the other hand, if I got the benefit of the $100, I "would" be inclined toward repeat business, and speaking favorably of them.
JOAT Remember: Nova is Avon, spelled backwards.
Fri, Dec 10, 2004, 9:45am snipped-for-privacy@myrealbox.com (Renata) says: Unique designs are a whole nuther level.
Yup, some of those are definitely the result of unskilled labor.
JOAT Remember: Nova is Avon, spelled backwards.
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